What is happening now in the old country (US) is could be a prelude to a big devaluation of the greenback and everyone will wind up paying for that huge federal debt in some way. Of course what happens to the US affects all the countries they do business with.

On top of that the feds haven’t paid back the money they borrowed from the social security trust after the Viet Nam fiasco. There was never any funding problem with society security until the money was borrowed - stolen!

A lot of Canadians do complain about our health care system. We pay a whole $38.40 a month for basic health care. Cost for my husband’s cancer surgery two years ago, zero. We did have to travel so there was some cost because we live in a rural area.

There are waiting lists and there is triage for some conditions. You won’t get a heart transplant at a certain age or if your lifestyle is such that it would not help. It isn’t a perfect system, but I haven’t seen one yet without problems.

If I have to choose, I pick my elected representatives to look out for my interests, not the CMA or AMA. If they truly cared about the average Canuk, they would loosen the licensing requirements for new highly trained immigrant doctors. Its a shame they have to practically go though medical school again. Many wind up driving cabs or working as orderlies or EMT’s. The medical assn’s are just protecting their turf.

The US may have more people under gov’t health care through the VA, Medicare and Medicaid than there are people in Canada.

I find the whole US economy quite depressing and you still have to wait until January 2009 for change, if any.

Defense of the states is something I am willing to pay for. I don’t thinkn we really need tax money from Americans to do it. Defense (and the entire fedgov budget) could easily be provided for via import taxes.

The problem here is you only see one solution to the problem. That being taxes. We all agree that the government is one of the more inefficent organizations imaginable. Why does everyone (yourself included) then trust this organization to provide the most important services?

Again, most the things you mention are local and state issues. I keep most of my discussion scoped to the federal government. Which has NO FUCKING BUSINESS being involved in roads, schools, or fire fighters. This are all things that should be handled by local organizations of some sort.

So yes, ditch the fed gov services EXCEPT for the 15 things mentioned in Secion 8 of the consitiution which defined EVERYHING the fedgov is supposed to be resposible for. This list does not include roads, schools, heathcare, or firefighting.

Give yourself some perspective. In 1980 the fedgov budget was $500 billion. Today, 27 years later, the iraq yearly budget is more than that. There is something SERIOUSLY screwed up with that.

If the fedgov got to the point where they were only spending 100 billion a year I would quiet down considerably. This is a vrey easily attainable goal as they were not spending more than that 30 or 40 years ago.

@Work for government: Government employees and employment structure is just horrible, I completely agree. It is unfortunate, that there are bad apples that come with the package of people that build roads, teach in schools and work to make us safer.

I boil it down to this. No matter what you do with the money, whether it be good or not. Stealing is still wrong. Holding a gun to my head and stealing my money, even if you think you are going to do something good with it is plain wrong.

How many people do you think it takes to steal from me before it becomes right? One, 2, a million?

Why should I leave? I own the property I live on. I bought it, I pay to maintain it. It is mine. Why don’t the people who are holding guns to my head leave?

I do not want ONE SINGLE BENEFIT the government has to offer. So according to you my position is not hypocritical.

I’d like to see the government funded in a volentary fashion. If people want the services they provide, they can choose to pay for them. If not, then they don’t.

The bang for the buck? Dude, have you ever worked for any government buerocracy? I have. Your return on your taxes is SO low that it would make you cry. It made me cry, and I had to leave.

I am just more realistic about where we are and what must be done as a community so that we continue to move forward. There is no way that what you describe can be accomplished, no way - and I think we can both agree on that. So what is the least-worst next option?

And BTW, you do have an option: ExPat. Leave. Go elsewhere and you’re good to go. Your implied consent is staying here. You can complain all you want about taxes - but that is while you’re driving on roads that were built because of them. If you REALLY REALLY want to get away from all of that, move to Montana, have no income, live off the land and the government will not have anything on you.

So long as you want even ONE SINGLE BENEFIT that this country has to offer via the government, then the Libertarian position is hypocritical.

No one likes paying taxes my friend - it SUCKS. But the bang for buck (on the whole at least) out weighs the options IMO. I choose to enjoy the luxuries afforded by our system… so I do not begrudge the costs associated with doing so.

My grandma needs an operation. Without the operation she is going to die. So I come over to your house and demand the money. Well, you need your money so you say no. So I go ahead and write you a nasty letter about how you must give me money so my grandma can get her operation. You still refuse to give me the money. So I go ahead and come over to your house and point a gun at you and demand again that you give me the money.

I think we will both agree that what I have done is wrong.

Now, what if I come over with some of my friends. We all demand the money. What if I come over with 100 million friends. How many people does it take before stealing money from you becomes right?

This is exactly what the government does to you. It is an initiation of force. You can not choose to not pay taxes. If you do, you will get some nasty letters from the IRS. Eventually (a LONG time later) the IRS will forcibly take your assets from you. Should you choose to defend you assets the cops will come attempt to arrest you. If you don’t want to go to jail and attempt to defend yourself the cops will by force take you to jail, or they will kill you.

If that is not the initiation of force then I don’t know what is. By supporting taxation you ARE supporting the initiation of force.

I believe that Libertarians are Republicans that want to get laid and smoke dope.

I do not like my money being taken as taxes. However, as a business man I understand the cost of doing business. Libertarians, it seems to me, just want to spend their money the way that they see fit, rather than having a government take it from them. Here’s the deal: when you order product to sell from China, you are essentially outsourcing manufacturing, yes? So with taxes, you are outsourcing road construction, police etc etc. There are LOTS of things that the government should not be spending on, but that’s why we have elections.

I am a realist. There is no way that we can do without our government and frankly, I’d rather not. It’s easy and they do a better job than if I had to spend all of my time figuring out the same thing. That being said, I employ every measure available to me to ensure that I pay as little taxes as I am legally able to do. Ben Franklin himself said that paying more taxes than you are do is in fact unpatriotic.

Here here!

If you take money away from the government, who funds the military, then the military will also not have money and therefore will be unable to do anything.

The constitution only allows the government to maintain a navy. The Marines, the Army, and the National Guard are all unconstututional and should be disbanded as soon as we return them all to their homes.

Thanks Perkiset, I think I’ll enjoy posting here as well.