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Author Topic: So I was talking to this coder the other night at the cigar parlor  (Read 7991 times)
vsloathe
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« on: April 23, 2007, 07:16:51 AM »

And he was informing me that PHP is a dead language and that I have to learn Ruby if I want to go anywhere.

As impressed as I was with some of his work, I kind of thought he was full of shit in that regard. Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2007, 08:02:08 AM »

Bullshit.

All these people who preach about ruby, python, etc. as the next big thing have an agenda. They have spent a considerable amount of time/energy learning that language (some even "mastering" it) and they want it to become the "next big thing" so they are in higher demand and can request a bigger paycheck.

That's all.

Ruby might be the next language of choice for web development. Or it could be python. Or PHP could keep its marketshare. Or it could be something that hasn't received attention or even been invented yet. I don't know.

What I do know is that all these "web 2.0" companies that are built with Ruby On Rails, Django, or whatever the hell else are putting their faith into the assumption their platform/language is going to catch on. Personally, I think it's CRAZY to do this.

What happens if python is the language of choice in 5 years? All these sites built on RoR are either going to have to port to python or have trouble finding ruby coders to maintain their sites.

What happens if you choose PHP and it becomes a dinosaur in 5 years? Well, then you can port to the "latest big thing" knowing you're making a good decision instead of gambling on choosing the "next big thing" now. Plus, you won't have trouble finding PHP coders because they are already out there.

I've looked at RoR before and I got to the part where it wasn't compatible with Apache out of the box. So, you built a framework that makes it "easy" to build applications but it won't work with anyone's web server? Good job, assholes.

I'm not going to waste my time learning this shit until it becomes mainstream. I've said so much on my blog and I get the "you’ll love obsolescence" comments and I just laugh at these people that don't see that they have a much higher chance of becoming obsolete than I do (ie if python gets chosen over ruby). The difference between me and them is that I have confidence in my abilities to learn the language/platform in half the time that they did and I don't lose sleep at night worrying about people getting ahead of me because I know I'll catch up.

</rant>
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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2007, 08:21:58 AM »

or...

become a ruby expert. then when they tech dies, you can charge 500 an hour to save a company's ass.
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vsloathe
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« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2007, 09:05:18 AM »

Bullshit.

All these people who preach about ruby, python, etc. as the next big thing have an agenda. They have spent a considerable amount of time/energy learning that language (some even "mastering" it) and they want it to become the "next big thing" so they are in higher demand and can request a bigger paycheck.

That's all.

Ruby might be the next language of choice for web development. Or it could be python. Or PHP could keep its marketshare. Or it could be something that hasn't received attention or even been invented yet. I don't know.

What I do know is that all these "web 2.0" companies that are built with Ruby On Rails, Django, or whatever the hell else are putting their faith into the assumption their platform/language is going to catch on. Personally, I think it's CRAZY to do this.

What happens if python is the language of choice in 5 years? All these sites built on RoR are either going to have to port to python or have trouble finding ruby coders to maintain their sites.

What happens if you choose PHP and it becomes a dinosaur in 5 years? Well, then you can port to the "latest big thing" knowing you're making a good decision instead of gambling on choosing the "next big thing" now. Plus, you won't have trouble finding PHP coders because they are already out there.

I've looked at RoR before and I got to the part where it wasn't compatible with Apache out of the box. So, you built a framework that makes it "easy" to build applications but it won't work with anyone's web server? Good job, assholes.

I'm not going to waste my time learning this shit until it becomes mainstream. I've said so much on my blog and I get the "you’ll love obsolescence" comments and I just laugh at these people that don't see that they have a much higher chance of becoming obsolete than I do (ie if python gets chosen over ruby). The difference between me and them is that I have confidence in my abilities to learn the language/platform in half the time that they did and I don't lose sleep at night worrying about people getting ahead of me because I know I'll catch up.

</rant>

Pretty much how I feel about it as well CDC. I do regularly read your blog and now I recall reading you writing similar thoughts before. I was wondering where I had read that.

The whole time he was talking about PHP being a "dead" language I was thinking "70% of the web?" and the whole time he was talking about how "unstructured" and sloppy PHP is, I was thinking "I doubt you've looked at PHP5".
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vsloathe
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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2007, 09:07:24 AM »

Actually TBH, I felt like the whole time he was talking to me, he was trying to sell me his services. I'm like...dood you don't get it. I don't need a fucking coder. I hate being treated as though I know nothing. I know there are people out there who are *way* more talented than I at programming, and it doesn't bother me. We can all learn something from each other. I hate being talked down to though, and looking back on it I feel as though that was happening.

Probably just didn't realize it at the time because of the *KILLER* blended Canadian whiskey that this one guy bought. Tax stamp on the bottle said it was from 1959. It was AMAZING.
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perkiset
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« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2007, 09:14:56 AM »

I kind of hang on to a little philosphy I leared about 20 years ago: the POP and POCA.

The POP, or Point of Pain is where <the thing you're evaluating> becomes too difficult to continue using for one reason or another. The POCA, or Point of Clear Advantage endeavors to look at why one <thing> is clearly better than another.

So here's the analysis of PHP: What exactly is the POP that would cause a massive ship jumping? I don't see it. In fact, I see the language alive and being updated nicely with the times. How about the POCA? Well, there are things about Python and RoR and and and that have some advantages over PHP, but the same could be said about PHP looking at them. I don't see a POCA over PHP anywhere right now.

So I agree 100% with CDC that it's complete bullshit and driven by an ulterior motive like personal profit. There is also one other point here: take a new tech person, teach them a single language and THAT's the best language in the world... how many languages has that bonehead learned and let go before? That is a mammothly important fact in that argument.

And take NBs for example - still working in ASP and .NET stuff - clearly, the POP has not been reached and a POCA has not become extreme enough to move him off of a very successful, robust and broad language and development framework. Perhaps in a few years it will... but who knows? The important point is for him to identify that moment and move accordingly. The sweet spot is knowing the difference between pop trends and when a language has really died - or is dead walking.

/p

BTW - the whiskey sounds great - perhaps I should find me a bottle to try and kill the flu bug that's beating the shit out of me right now...  Wink
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« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2007, 10:03:03 AM »

stay the hell on your side of the 101 you sick bastard. Vomit
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2007, 10:07:02 AM »

Pink hat says the same  ROFLMAO feels like I've been massaged by a bag of bricks and am channelling Linda Blair.

You might want to swab your keyboard with alcohol after responding to this post  ROFLMAO
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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2007, 11:04:32 AM »

The Kaptain calls bullshit.  That dude should just find something sharp to fall on and do us all a favor.  Next thing you know some jerk is going to come along and try to convince you that ColdFusion is the way of the future.

@Perk - massaged by bricks - i'll have to remember that one.  Tongue

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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2007, 11:31:39 AM »

Next thing you know some jerk is going to come along and try to convince you that ColdFusion is the way of the future.

Wait... wuh... it isn't? And here you've been saying...  ROFLMAO
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vsloathe
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« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2007, 01:33:19 PM »

Yeah. The guy seemed to know his shit, but then he was running Ubuntu with Beryll as his X11 windowing system...I wouldn't exactly call that "hardcore". Nice and pretty and all but...

Anyway I'm over it now. Shouldn't have wasted my time talking shop with him in the first place, should have stuck to cigars.
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« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2007, 04:34:15 PM »

You are a troll vs Tongue
Pretty sure you made up the story Smiley
Lisp in 10 year will be dead. I know this to be true, I saw it posted on a news group archive dated 1987.

Quote
So I agree 100% with CDC that it's complete bullshit and driven by an ulterior motive like personal profit. There is also one other point here: take a new tech person, teach them a single language and THAT's the best language in the world... how many languages has that bonehead learned and let go before? That is a mammothly important fact in that argument.

It is a logical fallicy to presume that just because someone profits by a certain thing that it is wrong.
Lets say for devils advocate that every person I convert to using ruby, I get $100.
But if ruby is the best language then your profit arguement falls on its face.
The profit motive works well on people with christian/islamic/jewish culture,
but if you tell it to an eastern person makes little sense to them.

Anyway
Quote
POCA
fuk i learn something every day Smiley
PHP is easy to learn, has a C/C++ syntax which makes it very easy for java/C/C++ programmers to pick up.
It is designed for web apps, that is what makes it so good.
PHP is not a "glue" language like ruby/python/perl etc.
So basically the guy is comparing apples and oranges.

When I looked at ruby I had been using python for many years.
Ruby has its roots in japan, and is very popular there since it handle japanese characters properly.
Also it has tons of japanese documentation, until recently very little english docs.
(probably another good reason to learn it if you are japanese) Cheesy
(One of first languages to have unicode built in from the start).
It has some cool language features.
But unless you are chinese/japanese/or use an alphabet with 300 characters Smiley

Downside of ruby is native threads are not supported.
It does not use a VM like perl/python does (and i believe now PHP)
As a result it runs slower. As of version 1.9 they are working on a VM.
It does not have as many libs as python/perl, but again changing.

So for me POCA was none existant.
If on the other hand you are a total newbie (as in language illiterate), and you want a
general purpose language learning ruby is not such a bad idea.

The "language of choice" in 5 years again depends on perspective.
If your goal is to get a job and work for some large company, then great arguement.
There are some large companies that still use software written for VAX. Cute part is it runs
on an emulator Smiley. You can make tons of $$$ learning an ancient language.
Software is not like the hoover dam, a monument to stand the test of time. A script written for
PHP 3.0 will not run in most cases on PHP 5.0 without modification.
The 5 years crap makes perfect sense if you are selling to some companies board members,
that know nothing about programming/computers and think software is like a building.

Good software evolves. And ussually it is rewritten totally every 3-5 years. For perl example, it has
always been written in C (correct me if wrong). But as new programming ideas have come into play
I am not sure how many times it has been rewritten. I believe same hold true for PHP,python etc.

If you are a large company the mainstream arguement hold true 100%.
On the other hand if you are an upstart company you need to gamble on new technology.
What will be the "ace in the hole" that will give you the advantage.
If you fail little is lost, on the other hand Smiley

Quote
Shouldn't have wasted my time talking shop with him in the first place, should have stuck to cigars.
Yah i should stop getting involved in stuff like this.
But I do not watch TV.
I do not watch sporting events.
I do not have a hobby like cutting up wood, or taking appart automobiles.
What else is the for me to do but argue politics and programming languages.
Smiley


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perkiset
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« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2007, 04:48:57 PM »

It is a logical fallicy to presume that just because someone profits by a certain thing that it is wrong.
That was not my point, nor would I ever assume that - capitalism is good.  Wink

My point (ill stated perhaps) was that his argument may have been based on either his lack of knowing any other language, or that if he can convince VS that he needs a Ruby consultant and... Kaching! Or perhaps you're right and VS has made this story up as a cover to his girlfriend and he's just testing it out here  Grin

Good software evolves. And ussually it is rewritten totally every 3-5 years.
Unfortunately for good programmers, this sometimes entails a wholesale shift in language & toolsets. Natch, this is why I've gone through so many different platforms. It is painstaking at times, but keeps a body up to date. It's also an excellent way to keep ahead of the pack - most coders (it seems to me) get comfy and do not stretch out beyond their current toolset. It's just too much bother.

If I wasn't just 18 months out of a PHP/Java evaluation and bunches of Ks of source into a PHP/JS/Ajax framework I'd prolly pay more attention to the RoR and Python arguments
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vsloathe
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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2007, 07:37:35 PM »

You are a troll vs Tongue
Pretty sure you made up the story Smiley

No sir, really happened.
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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2007, 12:29:27 AM »

Quote
It is a logical fallicy to presume that just because someone profits by a certain thing that it is wrong.
Lets say for devils advocate that every person I convert to using ruby, I get $100.
But if ruby is the best language then your profit arguement falls on its face.

There is no such thing as a "best language" but I won't hold you to semantics and I'll assume that you're talking about ruby becoming the de facto language in a couple years. My point is not that ruby won't become the de facto language, it's that nobody knows what the de facto language will be and anyone claiming to know is either clairvoyant or has an agenda.

So when someone comes up to me and tells me PHP is dead, and then gives me the sales pitch for the language they've spent hours learning, I tend to think they have an agenda.

Quote
On the other hand if you are an upstart company you need to gamble on new technology.
What will be the "ace in the hole" that will give you the advantage.
If you fail little is lost, on the other hand

Why do upstarts need to gamble on new technology? If anything, I think the upstarts have much more to lose if their gamble doesn't pan out - they won't have the resources to recover. What language you choose isn't going to get customers to buy more widgets or do whatever the hell else it is you want them to do; I don't think a programming language is enough of an "ace in the hole" to give any business model an advantage over another.
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