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Author Topic: You Know What's Freaking Depressing?  (Read 6120 times)
vsloathe
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« on: May 24, 2009, 09:56:08 PM »

I just realized that in spite of all my big talk, I really only learned to program 2 years ago. I mean that in the most literal, serious way possible.

How screwed up is that?
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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2009, 10:32:45 PM »

lol

but you have been in "computers" for quite a while though right?
so your hard headedness is built on a solid foundation Tongue
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perkiset
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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2009, 11:03:30 PM »

It is impressive, that your opinions are as strong, grounded and thought out as they are for that amount of time. Always a delight debating with you.

That said, it's 33 years for me this year Wink
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 05:37:51 PM by perkiset » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2009, 11:45:17 PM »

It's all about knowing how to utilize your skills and you seem to be good at it. Also when you have a clear idea of program you want to make you naturally learn new stuff fast & better than by taking the manual and reading it.

So 2 years sounds pretty much all you need if you are really doing stuff and not just "learning" it. I didn't know how to do a proper PHP 2 years ago. I was ABLE to code but the code was horrible, didn't know how to use or code functions so it was all loop after loop. Now 2 years later things are little bit different. Now I think I might be ready to move on to something harder like Python or Ruby.
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2009, 12:20:21 AM »

Quote
I just realized that in spite of all my big talk, I really only learned to program 2 years ago.

In all honesty I think you have the potential to be far better than I am, if not already.  Of course I started in 5'th grade and since the age of 17 it's been 23 years of professional coding for me so I guess all things are relative.  Perk taught me on an Apple II, first with basic (floating point and integer) then 6502 assembler, explaining how to create a Missile Command style, flicker-free crosshair with XOR.  In my first 2 years I was pushing the tender age of a junior high freshman  Smiley  I did create some fun games for the Apple II that my friends and I played.  Armed with the crosshair knowledge, I created a nuclear power plant game where space invader like bombs were dropping and you had to zap them out of the sky with lasers.  It was back then when I realized just how crushing it can be when you design yourself into a RAM cul-de-sac of scarcity.  But damn I made some seriously fun screen savers with the tools I had at the time!  Remember the tumbling "3D" pyramid I coded in Clipper Perk?  Newsflash: The experience Perkiset brings to the coding table is off the charts.  Yeah he likes Macs, but he deserves our respect  Police

Waxing nostalgic...
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2009, 12:35:52 AM »

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The experience Perkiset brings to the coding table is off the charts.  Yeah he likes Macs, but he deserves our respect

Just to head-off another Jihad, I didn't mean that because he likes Macs (more than oxygen) that he's necessarily a special needs technologist   

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perkiset
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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 11:56:39 AM »

Most kind, ITTO. And yes, I remember, although I didn't until you mentioned it. Frankly had not thought about the XOR graphics thing either for a long time. That was before page-switching became the deal, as I remember. I also seem to remember that your early lysergic proclivities were well articulated even by the 80x80 lores of the original ][. You did love you some screen saver Wink

"I like the "he likes Macs, but he deserves ..."  ROFLMAO

Thanks for your thoughts, and to be clear: I believe that everyone here deserves the same respect, because as is really obvious with VS, years in grade do not necessarily a brilliant technologist make. I know this will come as some surprise, but I am rather opinionated  Shocked but my primary opinion is that I've found something beautiful in almost every woman I've ever known, and something brilliant in every OS I've ever used. Then you later discover that the former evacuates their bowels like everyone else, and the latter is often the product. Somewhere in between there is the perfect reason for existence  Wink
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 12:40:11 PM »

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That was before page-switching became the deal

Correct.  Writing to off-screen video RAM and switching the pointers once everything was finished rendering was the smoothest thing we had back then.  This was timed with the VRT (Vertical Retrace Manager of CRT monitors) to ensure that the video gun was on the beginning of a paint cycle just before switching the pointer each time.  I remember explaining this to Treasury Services/Oracle during my interview when I was 23 years old.  I got the job the same day  Grin  What a great lesson realizing that just because you can get hired somewhere "special" doesn't mean it's a good thing.  Avid anti-Oracle ever since.  I urinate on Ellison's garden.  I squat on his every release candidate.  May he get caught in a sex dungeon playing the sub for Steve Ballmer (and visa-versa) and may he be plagued by nightly dreams where he's rendered helpless as his code is open sourced and offered to the world.  - Amen
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perkiset
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2009, 01:06:26 PM »

 ROFLMAO
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2009, 04:45:32 PM »

@vsloathe
Problem is so-called experts ussually do not know thier head from thier ass.
Worse yet if you can not cut it coding yourself, easiest place to get a job is ofcourse teaching or maybe write a book.
You just have to pick up a various jargon like OO,xml,rpc and then randomly throw them in your sentences.

According to the conventional sources OOP did not start till like the 1980s which is absolute BS.
Lisp for example guys where using OO back in like 1960, they just did not have a name for it.
To do OO all you need is a record/hash table and with a little bit of imagionation you can do inheritance and the whole nine yards.
Fuk if u wanted to you could do OO using assembler so it has nothing to do with the language.

XML i love. Fuking entire books on the subject. Stupid examples.
Look at it for like 5 minutes, you can see it is a treed hash table basically.

Way back when i was starting out.
DB wrappers where unheard of. (shit like sql object).
So I made my own. Again all the CS graduates I met said it was not the proper way to do things.

0.1% of the puter books are good, but 99.9% just show u shit like how to use an API.
You shove shit into the function shit comes out.

Pretty much all experts are good for is to tell you what can not be done.
Or why you can't do this or that.
lol
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2009, 05:00:30 PM »

@vs you are a young turk.

sometimes i wonder if i ever learned to program.

i'm good at making things work, not so good at algorithms and such.

XML i love. Fuking entire books on the subject. Stupid examples.
Look at it for like 5 minutes, you can see it is a treed hash table basically.

 ROFLMAO
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perkiset
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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2009, 05:37:06 PM »

According to the conventional sources OOP did not start till like the 1980s which is absolute BS.
Lisp for example guys where using OO back in like 1960, they just did not have a name for it.
To do OO all you need is a record/hash table and with a little bit of imagionation you can do inheritance and the whole nine yards.
Fuk if u wanted to you could do OO using assembler so it has nothing to do with the language.
Spot on Nop - even in 6502, we endeavored to make "structured memory records" behave with autonomy and encapsulation, exactly like OO thinking - it wasn't until the Stroustrup's book on C++ in what, about 90 or something, that it was clear that programmatic structures and nomenclature had finally caught up with that way of thinking.

XML i love. Fuking entire books on the subject. Stupid examples.
Look at it for like 5 minutes, you can see it is a treed hash table basically.
No lie. I purchased one a great many years ago when I first wanted to get into it, claiming to be the bible and had a full retail transaction mechanism in it. Snake oil at best. I kept going back and forth through the pages when I first got it, going "OK, I get the data hierarchy metaphor, now where's the actuary code?" till I realized... I'd been had  ROFLMAO

@ Arms: IMO it is one of the single largest travesties and job-security notions on the planet that "programming" is about algos and math. It's about logic. It's about being able to construct a path of execution, and then convert it into a cryptic, syntactically oppressive language that is all a machine can understand. In many ways, it's about being a teacher. You go pal. I know many algo folks that have no clue how to "make things work..."
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 05:40:51 PM by perkiset » Logged

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arms
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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2009, 07:13:45 PM »

@ Arms: IMO it is one of the single largest travesties and job-security notions on the planet that "programming" is about algos and math. It's about logic. It's about being able to construct a path of execution, and then convert it into a cryptic, syntactically oppressive language that is all a machine can understand. In many ways, it's about being a teacher. You go pal. I know many algo folks that have no clue how to "make things work..."

i've worked with some.
actually after the first hurdle of learning the basics and syntax of a language, i was surprised at how much of a creative process programming is.
it's like lego.
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2009, 08:46:31 PM »

i would say to be a good coder, in my post labor day beer brain...

logic, in the sense of paths of action (not whether god exists), is key.
then the ability to keep large sets of those paths in your head at one time
then i would say programming concepts, like procedural vs object, race, event driven, etc.
then math. Math always seems to come into it somehow. even when it shouldnt.
then code syntax and vocabulary of the language.

My programming vocabulary SUCKS DONKEY BALLS. I can never remember the syntax of half the functions, and thats if I can even remember the built in function name in the first place...

Though I think that ordering the items differently could make up for deficiencies.
Great logic can make up for OOP deficiencies, almost.
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2009, 10:29:47 PM »

logic, in the sense of paths of action (not whether god exists), is key.
then the ability to keep large sets of those paths in your head at one time
then i would say programming concepts, like procedural vs object, race, event driven, etc.
then math. Math always seems to come into it somehow. even when it shouldnt.
then code syntax and vocabulary of the language.

Until that evening when you spend most of the night coding away, your eyes start
getting sore, but you persist.
By morning, you simply cannot function logically let alone code something logically.
Then all that goes out the fuckin window.. Its all about persisitance then. LOL
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