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[rcjordan]

And it's not a movie sequel.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/05/14/BA2S1DEV6K.DTL

[perkiset]

My god. And the full effect of right wing stupidity comes home to roost.

The right was actually praising a plan that will stop serving 800,000 children. They want a country of elites and serfs. And they are getting away with it.

[kurdt]

How I wish somebody would revamp finnish welfare system...

[isthisthingon]

Who cares about these people anyway?

[rcjordan]

And the full effect of right wing and left wing stupidity comes home to roost. Their whole system is screwed up from bottom to top.  I was reading a year ago about how the voting public sets up mandates for new or increased services via Propositions but never vote for taxes or sources to fund them as if it's a separate issue.

Case in point re liberal (pun) spending:
------------------
How it came to this

About 85 former members of the Sacramento Metropolitan Fire District earn annual pension benefits of more than $100,000, including former chief Donald Mette, who makes almost $241,000 a year in retirement, according to a list obtained from CalPERS by advocacy group California Pension Reform.

In Roseville, 17 former employees earn north of $100,000. In Merced County, it's 37. In Stanislaus County, it's 50.

All of them can thank former Gov. Gray Davis.

In 1999, Davis and the state Legislature passed a generous set of pension upgrades. Most public safety officers came out on top, eventually receiving 3 percent of their salary per year of service for life, after reaching age 50. The improvements were heavily supported by labor unions, which had contributed large sums to Davis' election war chest.

Nearly all California cities and counties followed Davis' lead, often passing clauses that mandated better pay or benefits if a neighboring jurisdiction received them.

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/04/11/2670020/pension-promises-threaten-california.html
-------------------

So read that article and tell me how California can continue to function financially ...right, left or in-between, they've screwed the pooch.

[isthisthingon]

Conservative red herring.  Prop 13 is the main problem.

[rcjordan]

>Prop 13 is the main problem

One side of the problem.  But, yes, if you want services you generally have to fund them somehow.

[nutballs]

Can't it all be paid for with the pixie dust I saw in that IBM ad from a few years ago? At the very least the crushed hopes and dreams of children should be able to pay for a new statue or something.

[perkiset]

Wait ... RC are you aaying that California employees, that came into the career of fire fighting knowing that part of the deal was their pension is the problem? So my dad, 48 year professor for community college who now has a reasonably comfy pension is the problem?

ITTO is spot on. The right wing notion of no taxes (but i want all the benefits of a well appointed state anyway) is the real trouble here. The republicans imagine that they can save the state into prosperity. The argument is fundamentally flawed because no matter how much in tax revenue they cut out, they're always going after more.

The problem in California is not over spending but lack of revenue ... And prop 13 is at the center and genesis of the problem. The problem with the right (and young people today, IMO) is that they want all of what they want without any of the associated cost. It's pathetic and stupid. The problem is that a lot of people see things that i see as valuable, as waste. And much of what they say is important i say is waste. that's a representative democracy for you, with associated tax revenue needs.

The epicenter of my point is that taxes i spend that go towards what i want to see spending on is not the cost of our democracy. It's my tax dollars going to things I DONT want to see a dollar spent on, yet I stay here and vote, that is the cost of being an American citizen. The cost to be in this society is the things we don't like, not the things we do. It is the violently self centered, mean spirited and Me First WGAF About You attitude from the right that is damaging the essence of our country, not taxes.     

[isthisthingon]

It's my tax dollars going to things I DONT want to see a dollar spent on, yet I stay here and vote, that is the cost of being an American citizen. The cost to be in this society is the things we don't like, not the things we do. It is the violently self centered, mean spirited and Me First WGAF About You attitude from the right that is damaging the essence of our country, not taxes.

        Beautiful. 

I guess it's always been intrinsic to my nature or perhaps it was idolizing a liberal father that caused me to feel the same way.  Or perhaps it's just a healthy blend of heart and logic.  But you've touched on a specific that I've never considered, perhaps because it seems so natural.  For me it's not just a cost but an honor.  It's the membership fees paid whether through taxes or service to your country that give pride and substance to your sociopolitical voice 

[rcjordan]

Whether your dad was a stellar employee or a goldbrick really has little to do with the macro issue.

Yep. Pensions are the problem all over when it comes to sovereign debt whether it be a country, state, or city.  Greece goes first, then probably Spain. California isn't alone in the US, either. Here in my somewhat-right-of-center NC rural county the administrators are struggling with the same issues.  Relatively new accounting rules are making local governments all over the US put their liabilities for benefits ON their books now. Before that, they were essentially off-record financially. The results were that it was a fairly common practice to use pensions to make government (particularly state jobs here in NC) pay more competitive with the private sector.  Since it didn't come off the budget (most governments below federal level are required by their constitutions or charters to maintain a balance budget), it was 'free to give' --just borrow from the future.

Now that the accounting rules are kicking in, the future is here.  And those kids in California and elsewhere who were once so distant in the future are being made to pay.  Math sucks at being kind-hearted.

[perkiset]

Yep. Pensions are the problem all over when it comes to sovereign debt whether it be a country, state, or city.  Greece goes first, then probably Spain. California isn't alone in the US, either. Here in my somewhat-right-of-center NC rural county the administrators are struggling with the same issues.  Relatively new accounting rules are making local governments all over the US put their liabilities for benefits ON their books now. Before that, they were essentially off-record financially. The results were that it was a fairly common practice to use pensions to make government (particularly state jobs here in NC) pay more competitive with the private sector.  Since it didn't come off the budget (most governments below federal level are required by their constitutions or charters to maintain a balance budget), it was 'free to give' --just borrow from the future.

Now that the accounting rules are kicking in, the future is here.  And those kids in California and elsewhere who were once so distant in the future are being made to pay.  Math sucks at being kind-hearted.

Pensions are only trouble when the current generation refuses to pay its share, as we have today. And there is NO WAY that we can have had the Greatest Generation give what they did, all their lives and then decide to change the rules on them. The people today that are voting and complaining about taxes have been financed, educated and taken care of on the backs of people like my father. The problem is that the right wing makes selfish arrogance and denial of everything that makes this country great, SOUND like patriotism.

It's wrong. And denying the deals we made with the millions of people that have made the country as great as it is would be absolutely wrong as well.

[nop_90]

Wait ... RC are you aaying that California employees, that came into the career of fire fighting knowing that part of the deal was their pension is the problem? So my dad, 48 year professor for community college who now has a reasonably comfy pension is the problem?

Yah he is part of the problem . Also l find it very comical all of you guys missed what is causing the problem.

It is very simple, you have X amount of revenue and Y amount of costs.
If you have Y > X you have a problem. So you either have to raise X or decrease Y.
Not rocket science.

X is not really an option since average joe is being squeezed by taxes already pretty hard.
Well not a peep was said by any of you guys about the 1 trillion+ bailout money spent on TARP program etc.
Kinda interesting that majority of american even support this silliness

Homeland security. How much is this costing taxpayers ? Hard to really tell. It is not making america any safer.
But a lot of $$$ being spend on that . Hiring all of those bozos at the airport to make u take off ur shoes will not make u any safer.
Gwen Dyer writes a very good article about this.

War on Drugs. Yep that one works very will. USA has highest consumption of illegal/legal drugs. Direct costs are pretty high. Not counting costs to keep 1/2 of the prisoners in jail that are there from drug related crimes. Very hard to tell true cost of that.

Basically Obama is wasting just as much $$$ as GWB if not more.

So why do I say your father is part of the problem ?
I will ask a simple question. When was the last time you ever truly talked to an average joe american ?
For that matter when was the last time you, your wife, or your kids ever talked to an average american ?
Have you ever stopped on the street, actually talked to a street person ? Found out what he is thinking, ask him how he got there etc.

For all intents and purposes perks, you live in what they call in PH a "gated community". Your kids go to private schools, going with other kids from different gated communities. It is your own little delusional community.
Now I am not knocking private schools etc. (my kid goes to one ).
It is like back when GWB was president, the liberals where whining that republicans where doing a "filibuster". There was huge articles about that, how bad a fillibuster was etc.
Maybe if daddy the professor was so smart, he would know that majority of average joe american's do not know what a filibuster is. Pretty stupid spending all that money to warn people about something that they do not even understand. To paraphrase a american statesman whose name has slipped my mind, he made this statement 50+ years ago. "What do majority of chinese care about freedom of press, when majority of them are illiterate"

To paraphrase chomsky. Back in the 1930s, the rich realized that methods of using pinkertons etc to break up strikes, overthrowning gov'ts etc was bad PR.
So they had to figure out a new way to get it done.

Hmmm how did they do this ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Sunday basically prototype for billy graham.
He also got huge funding from Rockerfeller etc.
Ever wonder why these companies support right wing xtains ?

Blackwater. The founder claims to be a right wing xtain. hmmmm
Double talk. Basically average american is so stupid that they thing that iraq and afganistan caused 911.
Funny that majority of the world did not think so. Why do they think that ?


Sounds like the same shit that is being spouted today.

While "rocket scientists" like daddy professor. Spout some intellectual argument that average joe can not understand.
Some guy like lenin comes along and tells them something they can understand.

And for the record, in the limited time I have been in USA, i have been in some pretty bad parts of USA. I remember riding a public bus. It was passing thru a "slum". Anyway there where some people waiting at the bus stop. Bus driver just went right past them. I asked him, how come you are not stopping to pick those people up. He replied at this time of day, any bus driver who values his life will not stop.

Joe American has many faults. He may be arrogant. He may be ignorant. But one thing you can not say about Joe american is he is not generous.
You ask for help in USA, people are always happy to help you, even to the extent of opening thier wallets.

And no i am not picking on your dad perks . I just remember talking to my dad ages ago. He was spouting some crap about fiscal reform.
I then asked dad. "how many average people know what fiscal means ?" My father said why everyone.
I asked my father "how many average people do you really know ?"
Why lots of average people. Why my 2 friends the retired university professors. Another friend who was an engineer. My other friend the retired VP of a siesmic company. They all know what "fiscal" means.
 

[rcjordan]

Heh, so now you're trotting out the 'greatest generation' stuff, perk. Emotional hot buttons and $2 will get you a cup of coffee at my place.  That said, emotional hot buttons do work well politically and that's been another part of the problem.

A larger problem is that government-pensioned workers become a significant part of the political constituency. I believe I read that by the time you add federal, state, local, military, and various & sundry quasi-government jobs (postal, civil service, teachers) approximately one-third of the working population is receiving a gov benefits package.  So padding the pension plans gets the votes.

[isthisthingon]

Now that the accounting rules are kicking in, the future is here.  And those kids in California and elsewhere who were once so distant in the future are being made to pay.  Math sucks at being kind-hearted

The accounting rules applied today cannot possibly be the root cause of the disastrous budgetary conundrums California, the United States and other countries find themselves in today.  Beyond being impossible, it's yet another red herring assertion from the neocon/market fundamentalist playbook.  The numbers speak for themselves and in California it's a no-brainer: artificially cap our company's revenue and we'll go bankrupt. 

The argument that a lack of fiscal conservatism and bloated budgets are entirely to blame for the disaster we now face is older than Ronald Regan and almost as false (if my dad is fair game then so is Regan )  Anyway, these assertions ignore the following fact, whether from ignorance, selfishness, greed, entrenched adherence to a socioeconomic philosophy or all of the above:  in California, people live in multi-million dollar homes with views of the ocean and pay $1,000 in property tax annually.  Think about it.  It's not that I want to "Robin Hood" all their money from them and give to the Free Software Foundation.  Rather, it's that when you run the numbers and realize what not only they should be paying, my anecdotal dot com fortunates who no longer even work, but what on balance the state should be seeing in revenues to pay for the services we all want and need, like fire and water.  The bill of tea-bagging goods sold to Californians in 1978 is from the very same clever, conservative and ultimately self-serving logic presented here. 

So padding the pension plans gets the votes.

It's equally fair to say that the rich who live in these homes who purchase our politicians are the ones who produce the votes.  Tax is about the only thing that manages to extract itself from their ever expanding fortunes.  Warped, clever, complicated, incorrect and self-serving Heritage Foundation logic is the consent manufacturing weapon of choice of the right.  Follow your logic rc and think about how you swapped the real people who suffer with the kids of today.  It's not the kids in the same neighborhoods who suffer.  It's the mentally disabled, the elderly and others on the business end of this massive societal con.  Again, who cares about these people anyway?

Avoidable pain and suffering is an inexcusable tragedy, not a hot button.  Minimizing it to a hot button is, well, a hot button.

Nop has good points yet is perhaps trailing in eloquence   But nop, even though the debate does not currently consist of much larger fiscal concerns such as the wall street bailout, it doesn't change the principle disagreement.  This disagreement causes extreme suffering downstream and it's a miracle that perks and a handful of others in his profile would even care about those outside the gate