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isthisthingon
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« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2009, 08:05:36 PM » |
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what gets me about the google koolaid drinkers is they think their fav company is benevolent. ms is evil google is good.
they are the same. in fact google's cloak of benevolence makes them even scarier to me. In general, Kool-Aid drinkers are terrifying, as all sheeple are. Yet I hear this type of argument all the time and it really obscures the truth, using the impotent "fear of being a follower" technique to coerce frail egos into believing in nothing. ALL companies are completely suspect, yet some do more good than others. Recognizing this fact doesn't make you a punch-drinking yo-yo. Last December at Dreamforce (the annual Salesforce "Kool-Aid" convention) Google was there in force, along with Sun, Dell, Amazon, Facebook, and other self described "open-cloud" players. IBM, Monoposoft, Apple and Oracle wouldn't give it the time of day. Why?? Mainly because Google, like the Force.com platform, is extremely open source friendly. I give them credit for that but have no illusions about their intentions - profit. It's the only true goal of any public company and 99% of the rest IMO. "Benevolent" corporations worshiped as beyond reproach by punch-drinking unoriginals is more of a scare tactic than a reality IMO, but these tech-zombies do unfortunately exist. Regardless, I don't think they frequent the Cache as it would cause permanent scaring  You could say Oracle, Apple, Microsoft, and Google are all "bad" entities but why let your ego create a roadblock that prohibits you from differentiating between them? Don't worry, I won't think you're a foolish lockstep techie if you acknowledge "better" from "bad."  I think it's YOU who deserves the weggie |
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I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code.
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perkiset
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« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2009, 10:31:14 PM » |
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To me the whole notion of Good/Bad for corporations is rather silly. They are in business to make money. To make more money they must dominate more of their market niche. So long as they do not break the law (or are not caught) they must do anything in there power to dominate more. It just depends if (this form) of domination is less offensive to you than (that form). There is no corporate altruism, there are no morals in business. Even the concept of corporate ethics is contrary to the primary reason and essence of a corporation. Qualification: I have and still do own many. The behavior of the people on the board is neither lost on me or benevolent. It is all rationalized self interest. If the pain caused by actions is less than the profit garnered, it will fit nicely into either the corporate ethics dogma or the collective rationalization. MS is not bad, they just want to dominate. And they use all legal business tools at their disposal to do so. If anything, I agree with Arms that, by having called out the Do No Evil jazz that Google did in their original 10Q, they brought something that doesn't belong into the market sphere and their capability to rationalize and do business as usual makes them even more skeevy to me. @ITTO: Loved the permanent scarring comment  |
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It is now believed, that after having lived in one compound with 3 wives and never leaving the house for 5 years, Bin Laden called the U.S. Navy Seals himself.
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2009, 11:45:28 PM » |
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Even the concept of corporate ethics is contrary to the primary reason and essence of a corporation.  |
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I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code.
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arms
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« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2009, 06:30:18 AM » |
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was just pointing out (perhaps abrasively) the contrast between ms hate and google love. google has some great products and i use some of them, ms less so. but i realise they are products not gifts to the world. Even the concept of corporate ethics is contrary to the primary reason and essence of a corporation.
i also agree and thats why their image of being "good guys" puts me off. "bad guys" are under constant scrutiny, "good guys" tend to get away with alot more. what a picture it would be - a bunch of nerd trying to give each other wedgies.  |
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svakanda
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« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2009, 06:40:52 AM » |
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Regardless of what my previous comments may imply, I'm with you 100% on this and it gives me the chills thinking about some of the more nefarious ways this data could be abused. I just happen to believe that Google is more open about what others do anyway without telling you. Oracle did this like crazy when I was there, but didn't tell the world they were doing it. The story went something like "collecting this information for data mining is not bad as long as you don't abuse it."
Thus my complete lack of faith that anyone out there claiming to not use data as Google has openly admitted to is full of steamy logs :2cents
Well yeah, that is definitely true, everybody and their mother's dog is doing it, only thing is Google is really f*ckin good at it. |
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a ship is safe in the harbor, but that's not what it's for.
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perkiset
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« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2009, 10:28:00 AM » |
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@ Arms - not abrasive at all mate. I think it's both vitally important and a lost discussion, that of the essence of corporations and business in general. People have been swayed to think that the government is evil and private enterprise is good - I'd argue that both entities are populated by the same kind of asshole (ie., "humans") and rationalized self interest exists vibrantly in both.
Natch, I'm no more happy with the government having this data than Google. Particularly since the NSA is one of Google's primary clients.
Fuckload of sphincter factor there lads, if you can get your brains around it.
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It is now believed, that after having lived in one compound with 3 wives and never leaving the house for 5 years, Bin Laden called the U.S. Navy Seals himself.
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2009, 10:53:37 AM » |
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I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code.
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2009, 11:14:59 AM » |
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what a picture it would be - a bunch of nerd trying to give each other wedgies. A real lunch launcher. Well yeah, that is definitely true, everybody and their mother's dog is doing it, only thing is Google is really f*ckin good at it. True. in fact google's cloak of benevolence makes them even scarier to me. I can understand your feelings but to me they might as well replace their tag-line of "do no evil" with "killing the defenseless since 1812." It truly reads the same to me and I place zero faith in any corporation - especially based on their stated intentions. It's all about actions to date for decision making purposes. Future actions are assumed to be malevolent, regardless of the past. Any corporation's stated intentions >=  |
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I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code.
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perkiset
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« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2009, 11:22:45 AM » |
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Any corporation's stated intentions >= Zactly. Anything other than, "We created this legal organization called a 'corporation' for the sole and express purpose of making money and protecting the shareholders from personal liability" is a lie. Caveat, many 401(c).3 entities exempt. It is when they claim otherwise that I start to get leery, as you state ITTO. |
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It is now believed, that after having lived in one compound with 3 wives and never leaving the house for 5 years, Bin Laden called the U.S. Navy Seals himself.
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2009, 11:33:22 AM » |
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"There's no such thing as privacy. Get over it." - Scott McNealy, 1999
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I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code.
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perkiset
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« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2009, 11:34:16 AM » |
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::shudder::
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It is now believed, that after having lived in one compound with 3 wives and never leaving the house for 5 years, Bin Laden called the U.S. Navy Seals himself.
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rcjordan
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« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2009, 11:58:59 AM » |
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"A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." Joseph Stalin
It's the distance, the aloofness, the separation of cause and effect that makes corporations (and government. and military commands) untrustworthy in the long run. The rotation of management makes it worse over the long term as the corporate personality is ultimately separated from that of the founder and it becomes more & more focused on profitability for its increasingly disenfranchised stockholders.
BTW, France outlawed the formation of corporations during the Revolution as it created an "intermediate interest" between what was good for the individual and what was good for the State.
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rcjordan
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« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2009, 01:18:22 PM » |
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>franchises
Here in the US? Yeah, probably so. I can vaguely recall some stigma re franchises in the 60's.
>Revolution
While we're shaking our fists at corporations it's only fair to add that the French also outlawed professional associations for the same reason. Today, it doesn't take much of a stretch to see that, say, the Teamsters Union or the American Medical Association develop many/most of the same negative characteristics attributed to large corporations.
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