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Author Topic: Small "fink" rant  (Read 9264 times)
ratthing
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« on: November 28, 2007, 10:50:24 PM »

So, I'm trying to do some stuff on my aging Mac to make my photo uploads easier.  I need to install imagemagick.  So I figure, no biggie:
Code:
%>sudo fink install imagemagick
[...time passes, I get asked a 3 questions about dependencies...then...]
The following package will be installed or updated:
 imagemagick
The following 96 additional packages will be installed:
 atk1 atk1-shlibs bison dbus-dev dbus-shlibs default-icon-theme
 docbook-dsssl-nwalsh docbook-dtd docbook-xsl gawk gconf2 gconf2-dev
 gconf2-shlibs gettext-tools ghostscript ghostscript-fonts glib2-dev
 glib2-shlibs gnome-base gnome-icon-theme gnome-mime-data gnome-vfs2-ssl-dev
 gnome-vfs2-ssl-shlibs gnome-vfs2-unified-dev gnome-vfs2-unified-shlibs gtk+2
 gtk+2-dev gtk+2-shlibs gtk-doc html-tagset-pm icon-naming-utils
 imagemagick10-shlibs intltool lcms lcms-shlibs libart2 libart2-shlibs
 libbonobo2 libbonobo2-dev libbonobo2-shlibs libcroco3 libcroco3-shlibs
 libdjvulibre15-dev libdjvulibre15-shlibs libgettextpo2-shlibs libglade2
 libglade2-shlibs libgnomecanvas2 libgnomecanvas2-dev libgnomecanvas2-shlibs
 libgnomeprint2.2-dev libgnomeprint2.2-shlibs libgnomeprintui2.2-dev
 libgnomeprintui2.2-shlibs libgsf-dev libgsf-shlibs libhowl-dev libhowl-shlibs
 libidl2 libidl2-shlibs librsvg2 librsvg2-shlibs libtiff libtiff-bin
 libtiff-shlibs libwww-pm586 libxslt libxslt-bin libxslt-shlibs openjade
 opensp4 opensp4-dev opensp4-shlibs orbit2 orbit2-dev orbit2-shlibs pango1-xft2
 pango1-xft2-dev pango1-xft2-shlibs popt popt-shlibs qt3 qt3-designer
 qt3-designer-shlibs qt3-doc qt3-linguist qt3-shlibs scrollkeeper
 sgml-entities-iso8879 shared-mime-info xdg-base xml-namespacesupport-pm
 xml-parser-pm586 xml-sax-expat-pm586 xml-sax-pm586 xml-simple-pm586
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] n
WTF? imagemagick is dependent on GNOME?

So, I think, OK, "fink install imagemagick-nox".  Nada.  "The following 96 additional packages will be installed".  Jezu on a freakin' pogostick.

Next up, go to the G to find out the dillie:
Quote
> I'm doing a 'fink update-all' and it appears that updating imagemagick
> requires the entire Gnome set of dependencies.
Only a small subset ...  Smiley
> Am I missing something?
> Why is imagemagick dependent on Gnome? Any work-arounds?
Because it relies on librsvg2 for vector graphic
So I toss in the towel. Fuggeddaboudit.  I'd be here, literally for days, waiting for this crap to install on my aging PPC OS X box. But for giggles I check by Xubuntu box (aka Debian) for imagemagick dependencies just to see how much crack the Fink maintainer is smoking:
Code:
sudo apt-cache depends imagemagick
imagemagick
  Depends: libbz2-1.0
  Depends: libc6
  Depends: libfreetype6
  Depends: libice6
  Depends: libjasper1
  Depends: libjpeg62
  Depends: liblcms1
  Depends: libmagick9
  Depends: libpng12-0
  Depends: libsm6
  Depends: libtiff4
  Depends: libx11-6
  Depends: libxext6
  Depends: libxml2
  Depends: libxt6
  Depends: zlib1g
  Suggests: gs
    ghostscript
  Suggests: html2ps
  Suggests: lpr
    cupsys-bsd
    lprng
  Conflicts: <imagemagick-doc>
  Replaces: <imagemagick-doc>
  Replaces: geomview
Obviously huge rocks of crack. Fucking amateurs. And Darwin ports is less well maintained than Fink, if that's even imaginable.

=RT=
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perkiset
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2007, 11:22:32 PM »

Why don't you just go configure/make/make install and be done with it?
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2007, 05:49:41 AM »

Get rid of the shitty OSX and install ubuntu Wink
Just got a macbook and it rocks with ubuntu Smiley
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perkiset
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2007, 07:45:54 AM »

Get rid of the shitty OSX and install ubuntu Wink
Just got a macbook and it rocks with ubuntu Smiley

LOL yeah there've you've got the worst of all worlds... custom hardware with GNOME or KDE. Deligthful. I don't know what version of OS-X you've been using Nop, but it's great. And of course the GUI is exceptional
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2007, 10:34:22 AM »

Quote
custom hardware with GNOME or KDE. Deligthful.
ROFLMAO

vanilla gnome is very plain and kde is more fisher price than xp.
but with compiz + emerald themes it blows osx away. you can even have those bouncy launcher/docking icons like on osx with awn.
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ratthing
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2007, 11:52:05 AM »

I do have a Linux box, Xubuntu, aka Debian (just a matter of which repo's you use).  It's my test server, not my desktop.  Truth be told I'd rather have a Solaris box for that, but you gotta work with what you got.

As for make/install by hand on OS X, too much work, Perk.  Why bother when I can type 'sudo apt-get install imagemagick'?  Which I did on the test server.  I'll just automate the tasks via a shell script or something to go back and forth between my desktop and the Linux box.

My point was more along the lines of: what the hell are they thinking, making a CLI utility dependent on a (bloated) windowing system?  Pure and unadulterated crack.

And on the topic of "get rid of that Mac OS X crap":  Don't make me...  OS X just works.  I don't have to waste time figuring out why my audio card (on the supported list) doesn't work (Ubuntu); why my LCD works fine from a LiveCD but doesn't work when the OS is installed on the HD (Ubuntu, Gentoo); why my boot partition got corrupted (every Linux & BSD distro on a certain piece of Sun hardware); or why I get kernel panics when I try to install a particular BSD distro on that same piece of Sun hardware).  I could go on.

Many years of system administration experience have taught me that I do not want my desktop computer--the one I have to face everyday for 8+ hours at a time--to be the one that has to be tinkered with endlessly just to work consistently.  If I wanted that, I'd have never left Windows! (had to get that dig in there)

Try running latest/greatest version of Gnome/KDE in a lightweight config on 5yr old x86 hardware (including graphics).  You'll be unpleasantly surprised.  This is reason #2 for OS X.  My desktop runs better with OS X 10.4 than it did with it's original OS.

I'm no fanboi.  I got burned bad by OS X patches in the past (10.2.6--battery killa), so there are very specific things I do before all updates.  The hardware line is missing a decent mid-range, but at the low-end, the price point is pretty well on target.  But given the dumb crap I've seen in the IT world desktop or otherwise, Apple is better than 80/20, which is saying *a lot*.

=RT=
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2007, 12:12:42 PM »

And on the topic of "get rid of that Mac OS X crap":  Don't make me...  OS X just works.  I don't have to waste time figuring out why my audio card (on the supported list) doesn't work (Ubuntu); why my LCD works fine from a LiveCD but doesn't work when the OS is installed on the HD (Ubuntu, Gentoo); why my boot partition got corrupted (every Linux & BSD distro on a certain piece of Sun hardware); or why I get kernel panics when I try to install a particular BSD distro on that same piece of Sun hardware).  I could go on.

but that's the fun part Smiley
honestly i never used osx so anything i say about is completely uneducated.
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perkiset
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2007, 12:45:21 PM »

My point was more along the lines of: what the hell are they thinking, making a CLI utility dependent on a (bloated) windowing system?  Pure and unadulterated crack.
Oh I completely get it. The notion of dependencies (albeit, implemented in a completely different way) in Windows is part of what makes that OS suck pond water. I don't mind *certain* dependencies if I know what I'm getting into, but for the most part, nodeps==better.


And on the topic of "get rid of that Mac OS X crap":  Don't make me...  OS X just works.  I don't have to waste time figuring out why my audio card (on the supported list) doesn't work (Ubuntu); why my LCD works fine from a LiveCD but doesn't work when the OS is installed on the HD (Ubuntu, Gentoo); why my boot partition got corrupted (every Linux & BSD distro on a certain piece of Sun hardware); or why I get kernel panics when I try to install a particular BSD distro on that same piece of Sun hardware).  I could go on.

[clip]

Many years of system administration experience have taught me that I do not want my desktop computer--the one I have to face everyday for 8+ hours at a time--to be the one that has to be tinkered with endlessly just to work consistently.  If I wanted that, I'd have never left Windows! (had to get that dig in there)
It's always interesting to me how people claim that the control Apple exerts on their hardware and software is somehow machiavellian or controlfreakish - it's for the very reason you just identified. If I want a something to tinker with, tweak, try stuff out etc OK - I'll get an old board and play about. Install *nix and off I go. But you are *dead on* the most important point: the machine that I sit in front of from around 6:30a to around midnight 7 days a week (oh FUCK is that really how my life looks? Sad ) I want to work without question, every minute - and the GUI must facilitate easier use not be an interesting puzzle. I love to put Macs into my clients offices because (for the most part) they are WAY too busy to dick around and tinker - they just want stuff to work. And it does, with aplomb.


honestly i never used osx so anything i say about is completely uneducated.
It's OpenBSD under the hood - it's rock solid. The Darwin kernel is simply an extension of that work, and of course the GUI sits on top like GNOME or KDE.
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2007, 02:53:47 PM »

The macbook I buy is an Model No. A1226
I am not sure to be honest which version of OSX (sales guy said it what called some cat name) runs on it.

In an nutshell went to manila to buy a new laptop. After only 6 months I broke my ASUS. In fairness the ASUS was a nice little machine, but for people like me it has not durability.
After only 6 months the hinge broke, and the lid is about to fall off.

Basically what I wanted was something similar to the X1000 that compaq used to make. My X1000 after 3 years still runs, for the time huge screen etc, probably one of the best laptops compaq made (last one they made before HP merger). Metal case very nicely made. (Probably why they stopped making them Smiley).

Anyway I go to look at all the shops, lots of high powered laptops, but they all look kinda tinny like, not a single one of them has a metal case, and they look like I will break them in like 4 months. Also it a pain in the ass, everytime I get a new puter, it takes me like 3 days to install all my custom software etc.

So for shits and giggles I went into the apple shop. And I asked him to show me the macbook there.
From the keyboard backlight, to the excellent large clear LCD.
Simple little things like the magnet on the power cord, so when i trip over it i will not yank my laptop on the ground, or destroy another power adaptor.
Nice metal case. Etc.
And for once I even let him show me the little demo of OSX, from what I saw very impressive, and probably for the end user very good Smiley.
Anyway after playing with it for 5 minutes I could not find the terminal prompt, so I got bored with it and wiped it out and installed ubuntu Cheesy

I use gnome, plain vanilla ubuntu Smiley. I turn off all the animations etc, they piss me off Smiley.
For the backlight on lcd,keyboard you have to install special driver. And for wireless it will not set up right out of box. But if you are experienced linux user no biggie.

All I run on my puter is several different types of editors (komodo,emacs,jedit ....), webbrowers etc. And I like to have several desktops, so I can like open a book on one, open a browser on another, and jump back and forth. So to be honest minimal window manager would do the trick Smiley.

Anyway the workman ship / design of the macbook appears to be better then anything else out there. If I do not destroy it in one year I will be happy Smiley.

Anyway for your OS it just depends what works best for you. I stopped using windows totally 2 years ago. I just found i was more productive on ubuntu. But I am guessing that things like your iphone, pda etc probably do not work well with ubuntu Smiley
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perkiset
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2007, 03:39:21 PM »

@ Terminal (et al) - All of the tools you would have wanted are in Applications / Utilities.

Here's an interesting thought - put Leopard back on it (it's either that or Tiger) then install Parallels, which will let you run guest OS on the machine at almost native speed - quite hot. I have an instance of RH9, FC6 and Windows XP that I use all the time. Handy thing: the images are all just a disk file, so copy them to another machine and run your virtual instance there. In fact, if you purchase Parallels for Linux as well, then you can run the disk image on that machine also - so you could have a single instance of Windows that you run under both OS-X and your Linux machine, Linux on any of them... it's a nifty solution.

Parallels is a paid application (about $49 I think) but well worth it if you want different OSs to run seamlessly on your main box.

/p
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2007, 05:05:45 PM »

I have never tried parallels, but vmware on my other laptop ran very well.
duo core is very important for this. the emulator will use 1 processor, while your regular apps use the other one (or that is what seemed to be happening).

OSX from what i read is a very good OS.
Bottom line,I am used to ubuntu. Ubuntu is stable, and does everything i need.
I do not need to connect to an iphone, (i do not like telephones Smiley ), and i rarely leave my house, except for trips to the puter store Smiley.
I know all the quirks of ubuntu, but with OSX i would have to learn a new OS, while gaining little.
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perkiset
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2007, 05:45:13 PM »

I'm really just busting balls... I know that you know the right tools for your job and it sounds like you've got it nailed.
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2007, 06:32:28 PM »

What ever run on your macbook it is a good machine.

Apple shop is kinda stupid when they sell it, they have the laptop right next to thier huge apple monitor.
So when its display looks small. But when u take it home you find out how big 1400x900 really is.
Good thing they did not have in stock the one with the 17 inch screen Smiley. I would have to buy a remote keyboard. Cheesy

What every OS you run on it, so far an impressive machine.
As i said before it is all the little things they thought of.

If OSX is based on openbsd/freebsd for you should be able to install a driver that allows you to run linux binaries natively (you could with freebsd).
Since bsd and linux are very similar the driver is just a set of thunks, so linux apps run are almost 100% of native speed.
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2007, 09:26:00 PM »

Good thing they did not have in stock the one with the 17 inch screen Smiley. I would have to buy a remote keyboard. Cheesy
That's what I have... it's even big enough for PinkHat & me to watch movies together when we travel. It's kinda heavy tho... sometimes I am envious of PH's 15" and how much lighter and easier it was to find a good case for it.


If OSX is based on openbsd/freebsd for you should be able to install a driver that allows you to run linux binaries natively (you could with freebsd). Since bsd and linux are very similar the driver is just a set of thunks, so linux apps run are almost 100% of native speed.
I didn't know that... do you know for sure, and where is this driver?
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2007, 10:25:57 AM »

That's what I have... it's even big enough for PinkHat & me to watch movies together when we travel. It's kinda heavy tho... sometimes I am envious of PH's 15" and how much lighter and easier it was to find a good case for it.
If I had $$ to burn, I'd buy one of the tablet conversions for use for travel and have a MacPro desktop for use @ home.  With a multi-core machine and enough RAM I could get rid of every other computer in the house except for the SO's desktop.  I'm waiting for something the size of the Asus eeePC in tablet form-factor, or maybe 2-3x the size of the iPod Touch...e.g. the new Newton with a bare bones OS X.

If OSX is based on openbsd/freebsd for you should be able to install a driver that allows you to run linux binaries natively (you could with freebsd). Since bsd and linux are very similar the driver is just a set of thunks, so linux apps run are almost 100% of native speed.
I believe nop is talking about the Linux compatibility layer/libs that you can install in *BSDs so that Linux apps run without re-compiling.  I'm not sure that stuff will work under OS X due to the kernel differences.  A small correction, OS X incorporates a lot of code from FreeBSD (and Apple contributes back).  The big difference afaik, is the Mach kernel, which is derived from NeXT.  There used to be a separate BSD project based on the Apple code minus Aqua, called Darwin, but I think it's defunct these days.

Reference to the Linux compat in FreeBSD: h++p://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/linuxemu.html

Perk, if you have some spare cycles you might want to test VMWare performance versus Parallels.  From what I understand it is faster.  I've been forbidden to use the SO's Intel Mac as an experimental platform, so I haven't tried it out myself.  I'm still on a PPC Mac.

Dependency issues are always a pain in the ass, and some distros manage them better than others.  That's why I prefer Debian, package management is ever so much saner with apt-get than RPM based distros in my experience (my favorite RPM boondoggle: an older version of RH that had a broken version of RPM on fresh install...so much for QA).  These days you can't get away from Linux, so I use it to keep it fresh.  I'm still a Sun Solaris bigot for the "things must never break" situations, though.

=RT=
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