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Author Topic: I love the FSF, and am proud to live in Boston  (Read 2081 times)
nutballs
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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2009, 05:18:22 PM »

Windows Genuine Advantage is not an issue. I don't know why its made out to be?

WGA only comes into play if you try to update.
The updater is FAR more invasive.

Just like the Apple Updater. That thing is like a fucking procto exam.
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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2009, 05:29:05 PM »

Sorry my last post was so long.  I didn't have time to write a short one Wink

Footnote: In my opinion Apple has historically been far less of a "sinner" than Microsoft.  But I have to agree with nutballs that the list applies "verbatim" to Apple as well, even though it's "silly"  ROFLMAO

It feels fantastic to agree with nutballs Wink
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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2009, 05:31:34 PM »

ROFLMAO indeed.

Except for VS ... he's an anarcho-syndicalist. Big difference I'm told  Roll Eyes

ROFLMAO

It means I'm left-leaning rather than right. That's about it. It means I favor organizational units like labor unions.

I'm just a mainstream liberal in wolf's clothing.

Shhh, don't tell the guys on  your blog that Perks. They're not so good with nuance.
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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2009, 05:49:51 PM »

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I'm just a mainstream liberal in wolf's clothing.

I categorically reject... wait wolf? stream...?? clothing???  For simpleton's sake vs, at least give us a lat/long so we can geo-code your deepest beliefs.  I'll bet your located near Russia Wink
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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2009, 06:02:45 PM »


It feels fantastic to agree with nutballs Wink

it should. I'm THAT awesome!
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« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2009, 06:56:57 PM »

That's because you don't see the internals of what iSoftware does to your PC.  The article states: "Microsoft uses software with backward names like Windows Genuine Advantage to inspect the contents of users' hard drives. The licensing agreement users are required to accept before using Windows warns that Microsoft claims the right to do this without warning."  So how in the world is this any different than Apple constantly scanning my hard drive with iTunesHelper.exe and QTTask.exe?  These little nasties clandestinely reconfigure themselves to load on startup after being explicitly turned off through msconfig (unknown tool to the average user).  They send similar information to Apple all the time.  And what about Apple restricting the movement of iTunes files that you purchased??  Offering a price hike imposed on users to buy your way out of this ridiculous restriction hardly makes it noble.
@ exes on Windows, fair enough - I have no knowledge of them. Only iTunesHelper runs in OSX and it is easily stopped from starting, should you choose to. AFAIK, neither iTunes or QTTask pass anything to Apple that is specific to you. Neither has been identified as adware or spyware.

@ price: who said anything about noble? But what are you asking for exactly? You're saying that the 29c bump they had to impose so that you could go DRM free was Apple's idea? (Well, perhaps it was - because they could not the their content providers to give them DRM free stuff... so the negotiation point was to pull it through the noses of users). There is a payoff/buyout/cost of business when you want content. That's the price for getting content that is without DRM, through the iTunes channel. If you don't like it, purchase through Amazon. Or Napster. Or any number of other services. There is no requirement for you to submit yourself to Apple's (iyv) onerous restrictions.


"Viable list of substitute Macs anyone?"  The question is for you.  Of course other computers exist, along with other electronic devices.  It's a gray area that requires monitoring and constant reevaluation.  Apple does in fact have some elements of a monopoly and therefore should have some level of monopolistic behavior checks wouldn't you agree?
No, I reject that Apple has any kind of monopoly. Until 3 years ago(ish) the primary argument was (not yours, general threads), "Why would you want to purchase something from such a bit-player? they should just fold up the tents and go home." They have a powerful hold on the market because they are such good marketers and their products are great. But that does not make a monopoly. You are free to purchase any number of computers, phones, OSs, software, TV add-ons, you name it from any number of vendors. You have *zero* restriction that says you must purchase Apple. The only monopoly is on cool: if you want to have THAT STUFF, you need to purchase it from Apple. But (according to unfanbois) every single bit of Apple's capabilities are overpriced and can be had better faster cheaper elsewhere. That's why you shouldn't purchase an Apple. Well, I submit that you can't have it both ways. It's either shite that is all hoopla, a bit player and does not dominate or monopolize the industry, or it's fantastically great - so much so that it cannot be competed with, yet is a bit player and does not dominate or monopolize the industry.

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I'd really like to hear how you'd define Apple as, "one of the worst."

When I worked at Motion Works and built a video and sound editor using Microsoft Video to mimic the features of their already released Mac version using Quicktime I developed a new perspective of how Apple tries to dominate standards.  Granted it's an anecdotal example and mainly relates to their ferocious history of trying to Quicktime the world.  But as horrible as MS Video was, Microsoft actually was behaving more openly than Apple was.  Just the annual fee to be privileged to develop to the internals of the Mac was disgusting enough.  But I think we've even discussed this and I remember you agreed about the Quicktime thang.
Apple really got it when they moved to a BSD base. Their systems were all proprietary, language was horrible and it did cost to get a license to develop. Now, since they were beyond a bit player, and it was clear that their closed-ness was only damaging them, not me, and the net affect was simply ridicule. The market took care of this for us and them. The majority of all that was ground out over the last 5-8 years. There is no fee to develop for Apple. All of their code, their IDE and trap kits and documentation are available for the simple cost of your email address. You don't even need to purchase a compiler, because under the hood of their X-Code IDE it's using GCC.

Huh?  1'st place for blame is the content providers, of course.  2'nd place is the people who buy into it (MS/Apple) funding it's existence.
Fair enough, although in light of the fact that someone's going to make money from it, they probably saw a path to working their way in first, then doing whatever they could later. It certainly seemed to me, over the course of the last 4 years, that Apple has been trying to move this direction (no DRM) for a long time and has been stonewalled. Now: if they did not get into the market until after that was sorted, they'd be way behind. Or even more to the point, if they couldn't get enough PowZoom to crank on the arms of the suppliers, perhaps it'd never happen. This is all crystal ball shit though, for both you and I since we were not in the board rooms.


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But second, and much more importantly, why should all software be free?
I have no idea, but if I personally thought all software should be free I'd state my case Wink  But foundational software such as the OS and ubiquitous business software that's essentially required to compete (like Office) most definitely should have free options available.  Charge for whatever you want - especially helpful, elective software - but don't handcuff the public with a purchase "requirement"  Don't make me...
But why? Why MUST it be free? clearly, people have the option of Open Office. They have the option of Linux. They have the option of MySQL, Apache and PHP. They DO NOT NEED APPLE. Yet the argument is that Apple or MS must be made to be free as well. Here then, to the core of my argument: I have been a nix guy for a long time and am reasonably good. Almost all my servers are varieties of nix. Yet I choose to spend big dollars on Mac stuff. Why? Because the differential is worth the money! I have the option to do everything I could possibly want to do in *nix (and I have, not just could) ... so why does Apple need to release everything for free? The deal to me is that *nix blows as a desktop system compared to the Mac. It may not to you or VS. Fair enough, that's the beauty of all this. But I am willing to pay money to promote a company that creates what I consider to be industrial art. Others feel the same about Windows. Nuts tells me that Win7 is just going to be killer. That took a lot of time, money, engineering etc etc etc to create. Does MS not deserve money for that? I may not like the product, but I totally get why they need to charge for the thing.


I believe you've mistaken mine since I agree about doctors, though I realize it's just my own limited experience.  The point is the comparison to MS/Apple, specifically the assertion that they are doing what they see is best, unless you mean as it relates to maximizing profitability.  Everything else is a pile of meringue.  Microsoft and Apple "doing their best" on security without profit as their primary motivator??  Am I missing something here??  Regardless that we disagree about them (or just Apple) doing their best the vast majority of the time, in a closed and profit maximized system it's impossible to not jeopardize the security of users since there's nothing but the steady heroin drip of updates to help you.  Then there's the people about to get Snow Leoparded and will be forced to buy new software and hardware from Apple or fade into supportless obscurity.  Microsoft is just as ambivalent in this regard. 
Oh I absolutely agree - it is all about profitability. The point here is that if something is deemed insecure, and people can't do their banking on it, it will be spanked hard in the market (as we've seen with Windows) and profitability goes down. The (rather bombastic) statement in the 7 sins is that there is a crime of ommission or a concerted effort to avoid deploying security measures. I asserted simply that A) I think it's too hard for them to do it right and B) they'll not do it if it does not affect them. So it IS important to raise the roof when something's amiss, but it's a bit overblown. And I do believe that there are good people at MS that are trying to do the right thing. I SERIOUSLY doubt that if an engineer came up and said, "Wow - we've got a serious hole here, it's really nasty." They'd shut him down and bury it. They may not tell the world while they try to buy some time to get around it, but I really, really doubt that the Redmonders are that insidious.

I mean, we could argue that the very creating of Windows created a threatening environment for users because it enabled internet banking. But at that point we need to talk about the developers of asphalt and the scourge called "roads" which facilitate the most dangerous things in the US today.

LOL - Support = $ Wink  @dogmatic extremity; point taken and I'll eat the zealot alert cookie.  I'm part of the free software overpush problem, not the solution Smiley
When you've got your zealot hat on it's nobel and you're in the right place. I have no argument with the essence of the cause and in fact find it nothing but excellent for the future of software in general. And it needs folks like you to be advocating it, or it will go nowhere.

Thank goodness we're on the same side of the aisle re. healthcare  ROFLMAO
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« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2009, 08:05:52 PM »

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But second, and much more importantly, why should all software be free?

Otherwise, we have no idea what it's doing.

Free as in speech, not as in beer. It's perfectly acceptable to sell and profit from the sale of free software.

It's a ridiculous conversation to even have to have. Imagine having this conversation about anything else. How about cars? Would you be ok with a car company who welded shut the hood and all access points in your car and voided your warranty if you opened it? Would you be ok with a car company telling you where you are allowed to drive your car? What if you weren't even offered the option of *owning* your car at all? What if your car was still the intellectual property of your car company, and you just got to use it? Why it isn't obvious to more people that software wants and needs to be free, I will never know. No one would tolerate it any other area.

Just on principle, with very few exceptions, code doesn't run on this machine if I can't examine its source.

EDIT: That's why when Perks says he's paranoid, I always chuckle a little. Apparently, he's just paranoid enough to still be able to trust a faceless company he's never met with all of his sensitive data and mission-critical development apparatus. Wink
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« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2009, 08:13:28 PM »

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But what are you asking for exactly (DRM)?
 

Don't sell anything that uses it, period.  Foolish and idealistic?  Sure.  Part of the problem with closed source profit-based software?   Idea...

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No, I reject that Apple has any kind of monopoly.

From Monopoly in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly)
"Holding a dominant position or a monopoly in the market is not illegal in itself, however certain categories of behaviour can, when a business is dominant, be considered abusive and therefore be met with legal sanctions."


Quote
Well, I submit that you can't have it both ways. It's either shite that is all hoopla, a bit player and does not dominate or monopolize the industry, or it's fantastically great - so much so that it cannot be competed with, yet is a bit player and does not dominate or monopolize the industry.

Both assertions are off the mark IMO so I'll take it zero ways Wink  Since a monopoly involves the lack of viable substitute goods, the question remains but I'll pose it differently.  Can you name any viable Mac substitutes?

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But why? Why MUST it be free? clearly, people have the option of Open Office.

Yes we do... now, thanks to the same brain trust community in this topic.  They understood why the shackles of predatory licensing needed to be lifted, yet unbelievably receive a paltry amount of support from the very people who benefit from their efforts.

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... so why does Apple need to release everything for free?

That would be a horrible idea, and where on earth did it come from?  Apple shouldn't need to do anything.  They make great products that provide tremendous value for the world, products worth paying for and rightfully sold for profit.  And regulations should keep them on a short leash because of their dominance in various markets.  Seems there's a problem with nuance on this board Wink

Quote
The (rather bombastic) statement in the 7 sins is that there is a crime of ommission or a concerted effort to avoid deploying security measures. I asserted simply that A) I think it's too hard for them to do it right and B) they'll not do it if it does not affect them. So it IS important to raise the roof when something's amiss, but it's a bit overblown.

Totally agree.

Quote
Thank goodness we're on the same side of the aisle re. healthcare

Outsource it to India??  I never thought you'd agree with me on that one Wink
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« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2009, 08:48:10 PM »

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It's a ridiculous conversation to even have to have. Imagine having this conversation about anything else. How about cars? Would you be ok with a car company who welded shut the hood and all access points in your car and voided your warranty if you opened it? Would you be ok with a car company telling you where you are allowed to drive your car? What if you weren't even offered the option of *owning* your car at all? What if your car was still the intellectual property of your car company, and you just got to use it? Why it isn't obvious to more people that software wants and needs to be free, I will never know.

 Applause  Well put vs.  I think the answer is people reduce the word "free" to cash only.  It is a nuanced subject after all Wink

adj.
  • 1. Not imprisoned or enslaved; being at liberty.
  • 2. Not controlled by obligation or the will of another.

adv.
  • 1. In a free manner; without restraint.
  • 2. Without charge.

That will be 25 cents  Nerd

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« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2009, 09:00:56 PM »

Free as in speech, not as in beer. It's perfectly acceptable to sell and profit from the sale of free software.

It's a ridiculous conversation to even have to have. Imagine having this conversation about anything else. How about cars? Would you be ok with a car company who welded shut the hood and all access points in your car and voided your warranty if you opened it? Would you be ok with a car company telling you where you are allowed to drive your car? What if you weren't even offered the option of *owning* your car at all? What if your car was still the intellectual property of your car company, and you just got to use it? Why it isn't obvious to more people that software wants and needs to be free, I will never know. No one would tolerate it any other area.
Music, movies, books, writings for newspapers, magazines, architecture ... intellectual property is different than a car. I think the fundamental problem is the assignment of exactly what software IS. I agree sometimes it can be a car. But sometimes it's art. Where then, the line? I do not believe that it is as easily quantified as you would outline.

But from another perspective, cars have an inherent copy protection: I have neither the analysis devices to figure out how to reverse engineer a car nor the resources to reproduce it. The DBDog could, he's a big metal works guy ... but arguably, so could you disassemble any piece of software and get to how it works. If you managed to duplicate something in a car that was protected by patent they'd sue you when you tried to reproduce it.

Again, I think that software is literally something new under the sun, indescribable with the current tools because of it's inherent sameness and difference to other, worldly inventions.

EDIT: That's why when Perks says he's paranoid, I always chuckle a little. Apparently, he's just paranoid enough to still be able to trust a faceless company he's never met with all of his sensitive data and mission-critical development apparatus. Wink
ROFLMAO We all have our areas of paranoia my friend, and areas of trust. I can be trusting of certain pieces of software because I know that bodies similar to you are every so vigilant, and actually aggressively looking for just the kind of phone home you and ITTO describe. I can be trusting here, because the enemies of Apple would have their ass so quickly. In this case, the enemy of my friend, is my friend Wink
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« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2009, 09:04:07 PM »

You give me too much credit. Sometimes I don't even disclose  Mobster
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« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2009, 09:39:19 PM »

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Music, movies, books, writings for newspapers, magazines, architecture ...

And art as well, though art is an argument used when a company wants their products to avoid regulation that products must face.

Quote
I think that software is literally something new under the sun, indescribable with the current tools because of it's inherent sameness and difference to other, worldly inventions.

True.  The miserable history of failed legal attempts to squeeze fairness from Microsoft tells that story.  But it ain't just software with Apple.  They've bundled Hardware Explorer with their OS and prohibited others from producing their own versions  Cry  Their greatest achievement was convincing the world that it's right, fair and required to provide the best user experience 
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« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2009, 01:15:55 PM »

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but arguably, so could you disassemble any piece of software and get to how it works.

incorrect. It is because of these people that I can go to JAIL for disassembling software. Look it up. Not reproducing it, not selling it, just circumventing the copy protection on it. Tell me that's not absolutely ridiculous, and that will be my queue that we just can't discuss this subject any further, because we live on different planets.
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« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2009, 01:23:06 PM »

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It is because of these people that I can go to JAIL for disassembling software. Look it up. Not reproducing it, not selling it, just circumventing the copy protection on it. Tell me that's not absolutely ridiculous

 
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