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[isthisthingon]

>Apple has no possible way of harming anyone in the scale Google will and has harmed

How Chinese Suicides Could Hurt Apple

As far as hiding your identity and using an RFID cover for your wallet, well it's certainly possible for some to go unnoticed.  I'm just referring to the majority of us who have computers, a job and an Internet connection. 

Isn't it kinda funny that you first mock me for saying Apple is straight up company because I don't know them and now you expect me to believe that Google somehow obeys their privacy policy? I have no way of knowing they do. It's closed system, I can't inspect the source. I'm sorry but your argument eats itself. No upfront cash because that cash would actually tie them into something?

Perhaps I'm out of line for mocking you.  But kurdt, you did in fact assert that Apple was honest, open and transparent.  I'm not suggesting Google is all of those things but when compared to Apple there's a few tangible aspects of their business that can be measured outside of this debate.  As perks pointed out Apple has two open source projects: Darwin and an open source version of QuickTime.  Yeah right, what do you think I think about those?  Do you think I believe Apple actually gives to the world in the form of open source??

It doesn't matter.  That rocks, period - even if the reasons are purely for being able to say "sure, we've got open source too."  It winds up helping and that's my whole mission here.  I've got no illusions about Google or Apple.  I just have an appreciation for that which can be experience by more than simply my financially privileged ass.  No I wasn't borne with a silver spoon and work my ass off for what I have.  But compared to the rest of the world I'm very fortunate.

>Personally I prefer to pay as I go.

[perkiset]

Clarification: Apple has open sourced a lot of what they do and even things that support but are not in their direct product line: http://www.opensource.apple.com/ I only mention those two as an example.

I think youre being unreasonably cynical if you believe that the reasons Google has open source projects is in any way different than they Apple has. Frankly I just think that the things Apple has open sourced are just a lot less sexy than things Google has. But there are very significant things out there.

 

[isthisthingon]

I think youre being unreasonably cynical if you believe that the reasons Google has open source projects is in any way different than they Apple has.

No I don't pretend to know the real reasons of either, beyond their respective money missions.  It's the result that counts.

[kurdt]

>Apple has no possible way of harming anyone in the scale Google will and has harmed

How Chinese Suicides Could Hurt Apple

Come on, really? Is this the best you can come up with? Well, I guess this works as validation for my point.

Perhaps I'm out of line for mocking you.  But kurdt, you did in fact assert that Apple was honest, open and transparent.  I'm not suggesting Google is all of those things but when compared to Apple there's a few tangible aspects of their business that can be measured outside of this debate.  As perks pointed out Apple has two open source projects: Darwin and an open source version of QuickTime.  Yeah right, what do you think I think about those?  Do you think I believe Apple actually gives to the world in the form of open source??

I said that Apple is honest, open and transparent on what they offer. I still think so simply because you still haven't been able to provide me a single fact that actually says otherwise. All you have said is that both companies try to make money every way they can and Apple sends you emails after you purchased something. Sorry but this doesn't quite qualify as "evil", closed or dishonest to me.

[isthisthingon]

I think the main difference is psychological.  When you buy something your brain kicks in to gear and actively evaluates the exchange for value, details, etc.  Anyone can go online and more easily be unaware that their behavior is being mapped, sold and otherwise leveraged.  But this is because when something is Free the brain has a tendency to go to sleep and you proceed without worrying about the consequences.  Is that about accurate or at least close to how you see it?

Now we arrive at paid.  The brain kicks into gear and does it's damn best to make sure it doesn't get ripped off.  It evaluates the entire transaction, it believes, to make sure everything is kosher.  Brain happily goes home with new product after perhaps signing a few papers and exchanging currency for the item.  Sticky note that must be ripped in 1/2 to get to product advises that by doing so you completely agree to the 500 page pile of crap called some agreement or something silly like this.  Nobody really knows exactly but I'd bet the percentage of those who simply tear through this sticker reaches close to 5 friggin 9s. 

Some may believe that at least they "warned you" so it's better than nothing.  Lawyers have been duping humanity with this technique and thrive on it to this day.  It's impossible for most people to even understand what reverse engineered or disassembled means and why this would perhaps gain them entrance to prison, since most are non technical.  Therefore most everyone buys in ignorance, much like they do online in the name of Free.  It's the money that tells your brain you are "in the know" about the transaction, not reality.

[perkiset]

ITTO are you honestly asserting that apple is more deceptive in their EULA than Google? Is it that simple for you?

[isthisthingon]

ITTO are you honestly asserting that apple is more deceptive in their EULA than Google? Is it that simple for you?

Glad you brought that up because no, I'm not at all.  I'm not saying I have any objective or otherwise quantifiable evidence of which is more deceptive.  I am, however, saying that in both cases the legal jargon obfuscates the many ways you the customer are value leveraged.  Apple leverages value from the unwitting when they all of a sudden realize it's impossible to find software for their iPad that isn't filtered through the AppStore.  Tell me that reality is front and center in the Apple marketing and monkeys will fly out of my butt.  Then you're locked into an AT&T contract, financially committed to this device and not only do you have no other option but to pay Apple more money to add apps to it, but Apple will refuse service to you if your device is jailbroken.  Sorry but real money extracted from your wallet in this fashion especially in this economy is every bit as nasty as the misuse of Free.  People lose their homes while maintaining their cell service because they're locked in and they have to have a number for prospective employers to contact them at, for example.

We've discussed these things many times and none of this is news.  But the point really is that just because you dislike Free doesn't make Paid any more honest, open or transparent.  Ethics aside, the brilliance of the Google Free money machine is, at least to me, worthy of respect much like the brilliance of Apple's Free marketing it enjoys as a result of their artificially imposed shroud of secrecy coupled with Jobs' dog and pony shows.  Apple definitely leverages Free and would be thrilled if music was completely free since all they really want is to sell iPods, not music.  The $1 sticker for music is almost getting to the "to cheap to meter" level that will catapult iPod sales even further.

And now for a gigantic left hook... 

I saw the killer app for the iPad, or at least my killer app.  It's so killer I'd probably get an iPad if an Android based pad that has something similar doesn't come out soon.

It's one of these I believe: http://www.ipadnewsdaily.com/best-ipad-astronomy-apps-0792/.  Jaw dropping goodness.  As I rotated the iPad around it showed the actual stars that the pad was literally facing, FFS.  I had a tech-gasm and I'm ok with that.  The iPad owner groaned as I toweled it off though 

[isthisthingon]

However this app should be called The Lord of the Bad Acid Trip.

[nutballs]

That be starwalk.

That app is an example of how a pad device could change education. Imagine being able to learn the basics of astronomy without a telescope. Then the practical telescope usage is that much more special when you get to. Or how about going to a museum and being able to see an overlay on a painting or sculpture that not only has textbook info but arrows, highlights, plus realtime synced notes from other students and the teacher. Each painting could have a wiki...

That would of course be the next gen pad with a camera... But the possibilities are endless. I think apple could score EPIC points by creating an education version, or at least an education AppStore, that will allow a school to buy an app license and give students access.

[perkiset]

@ Astronomy: The lead picture there is called StarWalk and I have it. It is gorgeous.

@ iPad and obscurity about where to buy apps: Honestly if you think there's a mass of people out there that bought the iPad NOT KNOWING that they could only purchase apps at the iTunes store and they are pissed off, I think you are mislead. Big mislead. If, however, you ask people if they know that by using gmail their emails are all analyzed, parsed and scanned for marketing opportunities I think you'd have a big backlash - akin to the type that Facebook is getting now, since people are starting to realize what that EULA actually meant.

And if you think that it's wrong to offer terms of service that you're not supposed to violate and then get pissed off because the company you're doing business with dicks with you, try being an AdSense provider and bend the rules a little bit. Not only shut down, but Google will let you work all month making THEM money and then take your earnings at the last possible moment. It's despicable. But again: break the rules, the company pulls on your short hairs. Ramifications are different, but the path is the same. Put golf balls and pieces of glass in a Sears dryer and they will not consider your warranty valid. Open up a hard drive (it's yours after all) and the warranty is invalid. They won't even touch it. What's the difference?

Free is not more honest (except in rare cases like Apache, MySQL and the like that have done an OUTSTANDING job of creating something, keeping it honest and providing it Free capital F) it is used as a hook. Or the transaction type is not money, it's YOUR freedom. Again, I prefer a company that says, "Look. Pay me (X) and you'll get (Y)." Apple does this. They don't later scrape my emails, they don't analyze the content of my Word documents in their cloud (at least I assume they don't - they could of course be lying, I'm not that naive - but I ASSUME that they honor that agreement, just as I do a huge variety of other companies). I pay for the value I get up front. Am I later marketed to? Of course! Virtually every company I've ever dealt with does that, no argument there. But my info is not used in a deceptive way - one that is hidden by the bright glow of the word "Free."

Google uses free like a child predator uses a lollipop. Again, not denying the value of free and the people/companies/entities that do Free the right way - only trying to engage this direct argument of Google vs. Apple. Bearing in mind that both are simply after our cash, as should be expected.

<edit> Argh! Nuts beat me to the Starwalk ID</edit>

[isthisthingon]

@AdSense

That's a perfect example of how Paid can be just as misleading as Free   You sign up for AdSense and naturally have a crystal clear understanding of its Terms and Conditions.  (that was sarcasm) 

Now wrestle with this one.  What if Apple had Free versions of their cloud offerings that were designed to make money similar to how Google does today?  Clearly you and kurdt wouldn't choose these plans but would simply offering them make Apple evil all of a sudden?  That's just very strange to me, especially since the Free versions would be infinitely more valuable to those who had no other option.  It's nice to be the "bigger person" and save all those poor people from being "data-preyed" on.  But perhaps if you told them that you decided for them that they were better off paying up front, when they find the money to do this of course, that you would be apparently surprised by their answer.  I'd wager they would say WTF?!?!?!  Thaaaaaaaaanks.  Reminds me of the smug cloud South Park episode where everyone is driving a Toyota Pious.  Nice hybrid, saver of the world    Free is very important for the less fortunate, wouldn't you agree?

So as high and mighty as the argument may be about how evil Google is, it's nothing but privileged, academic and irrelevant leisure talk to those who couldn't afford to pay anyway.  This is the hidden barb that staunch capitalists fail to see or see and refuse to admit.  Something for nothing is anathema to the market fundamentalist.  Ideas are free unless legally chained down.  Same with knowledge.  A billion people who could never pay for software and never would can use it if it's Free and create precisely Zero impact on the creator of it.  The only possible effects are positive such as obtaining user feedback.

I believe it's possible that Google is not just pissing you off due to their relentless data mining and privacy concerns.  It's also upsetting because the Free gate opens up the entire planet to be able to have access to all the things we the privileged have access to.  We even have the luxury of choosing to pay for an agreement of privacy when others are thrilled with any exposure at all.  So I contend that a hidden distaste of Free is not its misuse since this problem exists throughout the business world.  I believe it touches on an element of "value for value" and wealth protectionism that's so deeply ingrained in our last-century psyches it's almost impossible to see.

[ps - can't wait to see your pad soon ]

[isthisthingon]

That be starwalk.

That app is an example of how a pad device could change education. Imagine being able to learn the basics of astronomy without a telescope. Then the practical telescope usage is that much more special when you get to. Or how about going to a museum and being able to see an overlay on a painting or sculpture that not only has textbook info but arrows, highlights, plus realtime synced notes from other students and the teacher. Each painting could have a wiki...

That would of course be the next gen pad with a camera... But the possibilities are endless. I think apple could score EPIC points by creating an education version, or at least an education AppStore, that will allow a school to buy an app license and give students access.

Interesting and provocative.  Using a pad for the education it provides that exists completely outside of the technologies within is interesting indeed.  As more of a hacker than a suit I'm always uncomfortable "owning" or truly leasing anything that's locked up.  eBooks - similar conundrum.  The stories of lost data when eBooks crash and the failed attempts to retrieve books already purchased just gives me the creeps.

[nutballs]

I buy my ebooks.
Then I nuke the drm.
Convert to epub if needed.
Read in whatever app I want, and store the book offline.

I find drm very concerning, as I thin most knowledgeable people do.
I could care less about it, as long as their servers are running.
AND the fact that it also usually means you are locked to a specific package/reader because there is no cross talk of drm licensing, sucks massive balls.

In the end though, I don't think digital versions can take over completely. Analog is the only way store something for as close to forever as possible. And if you don't believe me, go print out that research paper you have on a 5.25 floppy somewhere...
Paper can always be read.
Vinyl can always be played.
Paintings can always be viewed.
Film can as well if cared for of course.

Or at least longer than digital

[isthisthingon]

Agree 100%.  Books have an interesting attribute.  The paper version is the premium version.  Great resolution, battery life, portability, etc.  and they look great on the bookshelf.  This is one reason people are realizing that Free books online in PDF or some such are the best marketing on the planet.  Hardcopy puts the mium Freemium.  And besides, an author's enemy is not piracy, but obscurity.  I just pirated that line from a book, and I feel pretty excited about that.

DRM is defective by design, execution and spirit 

[perkiset]

@ITTO & pad, you're going to love it I think:)

@free, me, google and pissed off: I have no argument with free AT ALL. Note that I give away phpMyIDE free with a capital F. the Apache foundation makes me very happy, as did the MySQL boys (curious where that package is going to go). Love free. when it's free.

If Apple started doing the same as Google I'd have exactly the same argument and would not use it for exactly the same reason. Note that I am not saying google is evil here: only slightly deceptive in practice, and no more evil or honorable than Apple or any of the rest. They're all corporations with profit in mind and I don't have a problem with that. I got into the thread because I perceived your argument to be that google is in some way more honorable than Apple. If that's not the case then I rest.

The "free gate" neither frightens or pisses me off. If companies can do free and still exist and it works for their model, then i am all for it. And if free gets so ubiquitous that paid no longer makes sense, even better. But i don't think that's even remotely a possibility because paid is what gives free so much value and free is what makes paid (often but not always) better. They will for ever live in a sort of adversarial yin/yang IMO.