next »

[isthisthingon]

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2010/092410-chinas-big-hole-marks-scale.html?source=NWWNLE_nlt_daily_am_2010-09-24

Well, it's better than another nuclear race.  I'd rather see supercomputer floats with waving dictators on top than tank and missile parades    But it is interesting that everyone seems to believe that the supercomputing race is important enough to invest heavily in.  And a gigantic supercomputer actually is property, unlike intellectual property, so it's a more sustainable investment than trying to own knowledge.

[perkiset]

Yeah but the software running on it will be utterly protected 

The supercomputer race is an interesting thing. I doubt that we will get lapped any time soon, because we are still making large investments, both government and private in that arena. And in fairness, it should be noted that the work in China is not original thought, it's based largely on what is known and has been made public by our best minds - the best best of what we have coming is still certainly deep under wraps.

Which brings and interesting question: would you have them (the IBMs, Crays etc of the world) expose all of their secrets so that China could instantly become our peer in the name of open source? Would you assert that we would be that much stronger if everyone else in the world had access to all of our information? And what would enforce that they had to make available all of their discoveries and implementations public? How does the FOS notion reconcile with national security or things like a "supercomputer race" ?

[isthisthingon]

How does the FOS notion reconcile with national security or things like a "supercomputer race" ?

They have nothing in common.  China isn't planning to box up, unnaturally lock down and make millions by selling uninspectable magic chunks of its supercomputer efforts.  It's amazing how impossible it is for certain mindsets to comprehend free software. 

Consider this: "free software" says YES to writing proprietary code, locking it down with the threat of death to anyone who would attempt to learn its inner workings - as long as you're not trying to take other people's money in exchange for this lock box that has no business being sold.  In other words, secrets are totally fine in the free software world.  But don't try to sell a box of them to others for money and then legally threaten them if they attempt to peek inside.

So keep your secrets behind your gate and everyone's happy.  But once you've sold an order of meatloaf with special sauce, you shouldn't have the ability (or some warped sense of entitlement for that matter) to imprison anyone trying to understand what that sauce is made of - especially after they've purchased the meal    Christ, imagine how unjust this whole situation is when someone gets a bad meatloaf??    In the throws of puking they still have no right to examine the contents of the loaf that caused them to hurl.  That's sick, and so are we for emphatically supporting such nonsense. 

Have a heart perks, serve open-loaf    They'll come back for the great service, excellent food preparation and left-hooks, not the secret sauce.  That crap's just ketchup and mayonnaise with relish anyway 

[perkiset]

I wasn't being snarky or argumentative, just really didn't get it.

My challenge in understanding is where, in the past, you've mentioned things like "how can I make use of a system if I have no idea how it works" - perhaps this line has been more pushed by VSloathe, but at least I THINK I remember you being on that train. So if there are public or corporate access points to the software/hardware that operate these massive computers, yet that software is not accessible, I don't see how it reconciles.

So what you're saying though, on the other front, is that it's totally cool for companies to create proprietary software, until it is sold. If I sell it, then you get the ability to see everything about it and do anything to it - like a car. What if I rent or lease it? Do I get full access? Should software be leased? (I actually have one piece of software on a business lease, thinking about that one makes my head hurt.) Does this jive with services I subscribe to? Facebook, for example. Should I have full ability to see how Facebook code operates? Again, I'm asking for your take on FOSS not being argumentative.

[isthisthingon]

So if there are public or corporate access points to the software/hardware that operate these massive computers, yet that software is not accessible, I don't see how it reconciles.

A subtle but important difference here is the suggestion that if there were public access points to said supercomputers, how does this work in a FOSS world?  It's complicated and perhaps my opinion differs from vsloathe on this one, as it differs from Richard Stallman.  Cloud computing services can arguably be considered as anything ranging from utilities like cable TV and electricity to outsourcing of all kinds.  So the decision to spend X for Y services consisting of elements not necessarily revealed to the consumer is potentially fine by me.  Demanding certain levels of technical disclosure from satellite TV providers may be cost-prohibitive and ultimately useless.  All you probably care about is the cost for the service.

FSF purists would suggest not using any cloud services not hosted in completely free environments, and owned and controlled by you.  I understand the concern but see it as unrealistic to expect.  But my original point was not the gray cloud area, but with the more basic distinction of the right to conceal whatever you wish - except if it's pushed to the public for money.  The legal protections afforded to automakers, home builders and most everything else are completely adequate in my book.  Once you buy a home or car, man fix it up as you wish without fear of imprisonment.  Software should be the same.  The current laws that make it otherwise are economically detrimental to all but the few at the top, and of course those who aspire to gain by leveraging similar channels.

[nop_90]

And in fairness, it should be noted that the work in China is not original thought, it's based largely on what is known and has been made public by our best minds - the best best of what we have coming is still certainly deep under wraps.

Nixon was not liked as a president, but in his books which he wrote after he was impeached he made a simple statement.
Only president china ever respected was Nixon.
With china, USA is playing poker. Except USA is playing 5 card stud, and China is playing with all their cards hidden.
And then most americans are so stupid they want to flip over the hole card.
Again how many Chinese are studying in western universities, how many westerners are studying in Chinese universities.

China has record of massive secrecy, only comparable to catholic church and russia.
Until about 1850 except for russia and maybe portugese/spanish priests, no westerner had ever seen the great wall of china.
There had just been reports of it coming out. Most of them where discounted as fables/exaggerations.

75%+ of chinese software is made for in house work. Who knows WTF they are up to.
Look at the security apple has in the factories.
China now has more paved road then USA. More miles of train track. More high speed rail lines.
This is what we know. The majority of the world's largest ports are in China.
Ohhh and china's highways,railways and ports are modern. Designed with german engineers and technology.
Not 40+ year old POS like USA has that is obsolete.
This article sums it up.
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/forget-recession-empire-crumbling

America should be very scared. Whistling in the dark that all China can do is "copy cat" will not make the problem go away.
I am not saying that it is too late, but the critical point is approaching very fast. Maybe 5 years tops.
After that USA will be another dying empire, see ottoman

[perkiset]

Wasn't saying that all China can do is copycat, Nop, only that they are still playing catch up at the moment. Their work is still largely based (I must assume) on discoveries and innovation from the American SC industry, which has been the leader for the entire lifetime of that discipline.

But I fully agree that America needs to be really damn careful. And should be a lot more worried about our position in the new global economy, than spending time (like we are) debating Christine O'Donnel's crusade against masturbation FFS. I think that on many levels, the real smarties understand that if we get behind in the world, they can leverage the bullshit patriotism they've created to make people happy that they are working for nothing to try to get back on top. Other nations, by excelling, are creating exactly the environment they'd need to complete the Orwellian control of our populace that has been striven for for decades now. They will complete the construction of the grand hamster wheel and get the American public on it for good.

Who ever said that the Matrix had to be a virtual world? 

[nop_90]

Wasn't saying that all China can do is copycat, Nop, only that they are still playing catch up at the moment. Their work is still largely based (I must assume) on discoveries and innovation from the American SC industry, which has been the leader for the entire lifetime of that discipline.

The best example is the 4 minute mile. Once the first person broke the record, all people started to break it. Just knowing that something can be done, is enough. So if it took USA 30 years to achieve something. China should be able to achieve it in 5-10 years. Honestly I do not know. Assume worst case senario that they are very close.

But it is interesting that everyone seems to believe that the supercomputing race is important enough to invest heavily in.

Not "sexy" like big tanks and airplanes. But super computing is just as important as a good military. Rommel's initial success in north africa is due to German ability to break American Codes. The battle of the atlantic, the battle of midway. Both where lost because USA/Britain had broken German/Japanese codes. This can be directly attributed to turing's work. Ability for USA to make the new 16 inch guns so quickly and put on thier new battleships. Again computer.

Germany had a better computer then USA before WW2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z1_%28computer%29 luckily hitler was a bone head.
Like radar, hitler saw no use for a "computing machine".

But I fully agree that America needs to be really damn careful. And should be a lot more worried about our position in the new global economy, than spending time (like we are) debating Christine O'Donnel's crusade against masturbation FFS. I think that on many levels, the real smarties understand that if we get behind in the world, they can leverage the bullshit patriotism they've created to make people happy that they are working for nothing to try to get back on top. Other nations, by excelling, are creating exactly the environment they'd need to complete the Orwellian control of our populace that has been striven for for decades now. They will complete the construction of the grand hamster wheel and get the American public on it for good.

WTF I thought the Christine O'Dobbell was a joke. Ok she really does exist and is running for senate. The masturbation thing not too harmful. The stopping of gene research ......
I think the "real smarties" are thinking that they can eliminate the middle class. Then by using "bullshit patriotism" can basically enslave the american population.
The problem is scientists only function well in places where there is some level of freedom. As USA loses freedom's they lost their scientists.
China is starting to see this
http://www.temasekreview.com/2010/09/25/democracy-is-about-accountability-checks-and-balance-and-about-transparency-of-government/
The problem is unless the democracy is a "western style", then it is not democracy.
In Britian under King James, and Elizabeth the first, greater freedoms where given. More freedom = happier people. Happier people work harder/smarter. Which = more money for King.

A strong USA is important for the world. Mainly to act as a balance. The collapse of the soviet union has caused the turmoil of the last 20+ years.
The soviet union caused USA to increase social programs. USA caused the soviet union after the death of stalin to increase freedoms.

[nutballs]

Wasn't saying that all China can do is copycat, Nop, only that they are still playing catch up at the moment. Their work is still largely based (I must assume) on discoveries and innovation from the American SC industry, which has been the leader for the entire lifetime of that discipline.

The best example is the 4 minute mile. Once the first person broke the record, all people started to break it. Just knowing that something can be done, is enough. So if it took USA 30 years to achieve something. China should be able to achieve it in 5-10 years. Honestly I do not know. Assume worst case senario that they are very close.

the difference is that supercomputing keeps improving. 4 minutes is always 4 minutes.

In an ever improving discipline, a follower can only every hope to be close to the front, but never actually be in the front.
This is not a bad thing in a lot of cases. The battlefield is one...
But never the less, they are never a leader, but good is often better than best. Cost/benefit is often much better if you are willing to sacrifice 20% of the benefit. Desktop processors are an example. bang for buck is way better at the 80% of max line.

[perkiset]

WTF I thought the Christine O'Dobbell was a joke. Ok she really does exist and is running for senate. The masturbation thing not too harmful. The stopping of gene research ......
I think the "real smarties" are thinking that they can eliminate the middle class. Then by using "bullshit patriotism" can basically enslave the american population.
The problem is scientists only function well in places where there is some level of freedom. As USA loses freedom's they lost their scientists.

Actually not about masturbation, about keeping us distracted by a seemingly important issue. It's standard fare here now. Pick something that is controversial, explosive, seedy, dirty or immoral and talk about it ad nauseum and then have the CNN "International Minute." Yes, that's correct: CNN has stepped up into global data presentation to the masses, once an hour. And they've given it a WHOLE MINUTE. Actually I'm stunned it really takes that long, since clearly nothing of interested or importance happens anywhere except the US.

the difference is that supercomputing keeps improving. 4 minutes is always 4 minutes.

Perfect. That was rolling around in my brain but I couldn't wrap words around it.

[Bompa]

Wasn't saying that all China can do is copycat, Nop, only that they are still playing catch up at the moment. Their work is still largely based (I must assume) on discoveries and innovation from the American SC industry, which has been the leader for the entire lifetime of that discipline.

The best example is the 4 minute mile. Once the first person broke the record, all people started to break it. Just knowing that something can be done, is enough. So if it took USA 30 years to achieve something. China should be able to achieve it in 5-10 years. Honestly I do not know. Assume worst case senario that they are very close.

the difference is that supercomputing keeps improving. 4 minutes is always 4 minutes.

In an ever improving discipline, a follower can only every hope to be close to the front, but never actually be in the front.

Yes, 4 mins is always 4mins, but the time to run a mile keeps getting smaller
and by different runners.  All disciplines are ever improving and many times
today's followers are tomorrows leaders. I think this is evident in other disciplines
(USA does not lead everywhere now as it did before)

Bompa

[nutballs]

of course. but it is harder to catch up to an advancing target than a stationary one.

Either you need to focus energy on being a much faster follower (in which case you are still just following) or you need to focus on getting to the next goal by a different path. But both are VERY expensive (not just in terms of money).

But this of course does not change the fact that america is going in the shitter in many disciplines where we were one untouchable.

[isthisthingon]

But this of course does not change the fact that america is going in the shitter in many disciplines where we were one untouchable.

It all begins with a culture of complacency.  Those who kick ass regardless will always have a seat at the table, assuming there's food left   

[nop_90]

The 4 minute mile example was an analogy. Like all analogies it is not perfect.

In an ever improving discipline, a follower can only every hope to be close to the front, but never actually be in the front.
This is not a bad thing in a lot of cases. The battlefield is one...
But never the less, they are never a leader, but good is often better than best. Cost/benefit is often much better if you are willing to sacrifice 20% of the benefit. Desktop processors are an example. bang for buck is way better at the 80% of max line.

Russian tanks vs US Tanks, Russian military equipment vs all American military equipment
My filipino hummers are a classic example
SUV cost is 2M peso (~$40K). filipino hummer small 100K peso (~$2.5k) and large 300k peso (~$7.5k).
Does it ride as well as a real SUV ? No. On a highway can it go as fast as a real SUV ? No.
On the other hand really cheap to fix when it breaks. Just send the driver to go find some more scrap parts.
When I cut off a real SUV, he stops. Since filipino hummer has a steel frame, and real SUV will be the loser.
I swear to get a driver's license they ask you the following questions.
Do you womanize ? Yes. Do you drink heavy ? Yes. Do you watch TV while driving ? Yes. Will you text your mistress while driving ? Yes.
Excellent I see you have passed driver exam with flying colors.

Another problem with asia is "statistics".
According to official statistics, PH farmers are 1/2 as productive compared to world average.
I was very suspicious when I found out that PH scientists had developed a new variant of rice that has 1/3 more yield, is more hardy etc.
And that PH is exporting this variant to south america etc.
So I decided to do a little research. As actually go talk to farmers.
For starters rice production is measured in cravans (sacks), but the size of sack slightly by area. But 40-50kg per sack.
Also how much is farmer getting per crop. You can get up to 3 crops a year. Maybe he just decides to plant 1 crop rice. 1 crop corn. 1 crop egg plants.
Also when he talks about crop. Is he talking about "milled rice" or "unmilled rice". Milled rice is 70% weight of unmilled.
Ok so once you got your measurements standardized, you can get somewhere. Anyway 6 Tons (120 sacks) per hectare per cropping is standard, if not using hybrid. (so within world average). I feed 8 people in my house. We use about 1/2 sack a month.
Ok. Now ask farmer what happened to the rice you harvested. Since it is "family land", even if farmer is doing the planting, he has to give "shares" to other family members. So maybe 60-70 sacks was given to family members. Then maybe he traded 30 sacks for a cow. Then the remaining 30 sacks. He needed money to fix his tractor,buy booze and ciggies. So he actually took that rice to the "seller" and sold it.

The official statistics are from what the rice seller declares. Also he is probably lying to the gov't.
If a "scientist" goes to question the farmer, he will lie. Maybe he is secret tax collector etc.
And the people who are getting the rice. Obviously they are getting a form of unreported income.
So how much is GNP per capita. Honestly I have no idea But much higher then is being reported.
China with its market system is a similar story.

Americans boast of their wealth, and have a tendency to exaggerate.
Asians do "cry cry". If people think you are rich, maybe you will get robbed. USA has not suffered from marauding armies since the civil war.
If "officials" find out you are rich, then they will come to extort you.
Your relatives will want to borrow money off you.

My point is, what is china's ability ?
I do not know. But possibly much greater then we suspect.

... about keeping us distracted by a seemingly important issue. It's standard fare here now. Pick something that is controversial, explosive, seedy, dirty or immoral and talk about it ad nauseum and then have the CNN "International Minute." Yes, that's correct: CNN has stepped up into global data presentation to the masses, once an hour. And they've given it a WHOLE MINUTE. Actually I'm stunned it really takes that long, since clearly nothing of interested or importance happens anywhere except the US.

Fuking fags marrying each other seems to have more importance then education.
A mosque at ground zero seems to be more important, WTF.
Anyways ....... Maybe the masses will see the light eventually.

@itto, u post while i post

It all begins with a culture of complacency.  Those who kick ass regardless will always have a seat at the table, assuming there's food left  

Even american's who have been to china's new cities still say that USA is better. Meanwhile germans/japs/etc will say many of china's cities are better then in USA.
Complacency is the biggest danger.

[perkiset]

Conversely, value is in the eye of the beholder.

If Chinese cities suck sh!t and PH Hummers are inelegant then they will never completely "win" (lousy metaphor, I know) because there will always be people interested in value over price.