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[nop_90]

http://successfulsoftware.net/2010/08/12/selling-your-software-in-china/

Probably for you americans very important The trade deficit between china and USA is increasing.
Also worse yet there is a rumor that china/asian countries will start their own reserve currency.
This is not without historical precidence, in the past there where 2 world currency systems which ran simutaniously.
Gold standard and Bimetal (gold/silver) standard. If this happens USA is in a world of shit.

Key points.
As the author has said, even though he lives in china, he is not an expert. I have lived in PH for over 7 years now. I am not an expert, i am constantly learning. But I know more then many foriegners who have lived here 20+ years. The most important thing is to get rid of your foriegner blinders. Keep an open mind. Never discount anything until you have facts to back it up.

The service vs actual software is an important point which we have talked about here countless times. So with piracy, you can't beat them, join them . I have also seen that asian's seem to be very keen to shell out money for paid services. But as the author said you have to offer bang for your buck.

Relationship vs Sales. Westerners do Sales, Asians form relationships. This key to doing business in Asia. Also make sure that the person you are talking to is the one actually in charge. Dummies in PH are very common. So a guy might have a fancy desk, corner office, sign on his desk saids president. But he might not be the guy in charge. He can not even change light bulbs without permission. Meanwhile the guy who you thought was a nobody who was sitting at the shitty desk and looked like a secretary. The guy that the stupid americano mouthed off he is the guy in charge

Also before business takes place. They will ask indirectly who referred you to the company etc. They will then conduct an "investigation". If possible before conducting business urself you should conduct an "investigation". You should attempt to verify things with as many independent sources of information.

Asia has gone throught countless crisis of all sorts. So people know that relationships are more important then money. After monetary crisis, money is worthless. So it is not uncommon for rich farmer to have stored in thier house 30 sacks of rice. I read about how some chinese are investing in mung beans (they can keep for 20-30 years). Many people keep livestock especially cows/oxen as a safety. Worst comes to worst you can eat the cow. If you have to run away you can take the cow with you. Also while you are running away you can hook the cow up to a cart .

More on Face/Relationships.
If you like bargirls or other such things. Keep them in the club where they belong. Your wife/children are a reflection upon yourself. So running around with a asian variant of a blonde bimbo is a good way to lose respect. Also it is assumed that husband is like CEO of family. While wife is like operations manager. So the wife takes care of the nitty gritty details. Asian wives have a lot of power compared to thier western counterparts. Also if u fuk up in business, damage control is very important. Initially if u get into a serious situation the relationships you have developed from above are very important. You have to start talking to your friends. Who will back you up in the up coming fight etc. Beware that in the future you will be expected to do the same for you.

Also keep a good eye for the word on the street. Are there rumors a hit has been ordered on you (very bad). Many business have military/police connections. So are some of your guys getting pulled over by the police. If this is the case, conduct a internal investigation. Has one of your people fuked up, and you do not know about it. Otherwise the warnings will escalate. One of you guys will be shot in the head. If that happens very bad, it means you have really fuked up, and if you do not smarten up, you will be next. Ideally you catch it at the grumbling on the street level. Send word thru different friends who will act as intermediaries that you wish to sort out the "misunderstanding". Word will come back what is the problem. A meeting will be arranged. During the meeting if you are in the wrong, come clean. Talk about how good your previous friendship was, and how important that it is preserved for the future. Asians are not as blood thirsty as thier western counterparts. "War" is costly and dangerous, and if possible should be avoided.

Once u figure out how things work. It quite simple to do business here. You need a high speed internet connection. You talk to the internet provider, he tells you it will take 300 years to install. So you then you talk to all your friends. Who do you know that works for the ISP. Also while you are talking catch up on the local news on the street. 2 days later some guy shows up. I am 2nd cousin of Gloria who is married to the 2nd cousin of one of your friends. I heard that you where "god father" to the marriage of his niece. So see we are almost related . And ofcourse the 300 years installation is just a misunderstanding and we can have you up and running by tomorrow .

[perkiset]

Westerners do sales, Asians do relationships: so true, and describes how little most westerners understand.

Strong Americans build relationships and understand the investment and value. But it seems very rare.

[isthisthingon]

Awesome post nop.  The article was definitely worth reading and I wish more people interested in this topic would take the time to read all of it.  I see some of the China/west differences as not only cultural but in some ways there are improvements on existing western ways of thinking.  America found new and innovative ways to improve on previous business practices, doing away with some of the bureaucracy and streamlining production practices.  Taking the Japanese team-based business approach championed by Toyota and incorporating this into Agile development was one such innovation, or at least an improvement or re-envisioning of an existing "lean" business approach.

But targeting relationships as opposed to direct monetary conversion is not just an Asian cultural anomaly.  It's one of the western blind spots that contributes to the dramatic shift in business activity that usually gets reduced to one of the "yeah well if we had child labor we'd be doing even better than them!" variety of rationalizations.  Loved this part:

Dealing with piracy

Actually “Dealing with piracy” is a misleading title, because in reality there is no way to deal with piracy. People will crack, copy and use your software as they wish, and they will not even feel guilty about it. Again, let’s not judge, but accept the fact that piracy is simply part of the culture (for some it is piracy, for others it is just sharing)

Instead of talking about code scramblers and licensing keys, let me offer here a contrarian (perhaps even controversial) point of view, in the wisdom of “if you can’t fight them, join them”. You should consider yourself lucky if your software gets pirated, because that means that it got traction. For every pirated software there is always a happy user behind it (after all, they chose to pirate your software, and not your competitor’s), and if this user convinces their employer to use your software, then there is a good chance that these companies will be your future clients.

And considering the false front man at the grand desk who can't buy a light bulb without permission but the "assistant" across the room owns everything!!   

That may be a "cultural difference" to some, but it will eternally fool the gigantic western egos who actually believe sitting at the desk of gold makes them better somehow.  If you put these two business approaches on even ground, giving them a fair fight, the west would lose quickly 

It's not a matter of "if," said the dodo bird

[nop_90]

And considering the false front man at the grand desk who can't buy a light bulb without permission but the "assistant" across the room owns everything!!   

Dummies are very common in PH. Especially with chinese investors/businessmen. There are 2 reasons
1) legality -  foriegners are not allowed to own more then 40% of a company. So you install dummies so you can still control the company.
2) liability -  regime changes here are common. Even in china where the "communist party" is in charge. So once in a while you read about some high up chinese getting executed for ________. So that means all of his friends will be implicated. When a regime change happens all bad things that happens will be pinned on the guy executed and all of his friends. In china they call it a "purge", in PH it has no name that I no of. But the concept is the same. The dummies are then going to take the fall.

The key is to figure out if the guy is a dummy. If he can not make instant decisions good possibilty he dummy. Then observe who are the workers are talking to. So I once did business with a chinese owned firm (run by dummies). I then observed a chinese woman sitting in the corner who had tons of accounting software running on her laptop. But the story was she is just "visiting" from china. And i noticed the workers asking her questions. So she was the "real" accountant, that kept the real set of books. The dummy account maintains another set of books. I then later met the chinese who ran the company and we cut the BS and I would negotiate directly with him. Once we had drawn up the contract the "president" would sign. Many times he wanted me to go back with him to china for business trips. But I am old, not longer like to travel. I do not like to leave the philippines .

That may be a "cultural difference" to some, but it will eternally fool the gigantic western egos who actually believe sitting at the desk of gold makes them better somehow.  If you put these two business approaches on even ground, giving them a fair fight, the west would lose quickly

America (USA/Canada) has been blessed 150+ years of stability. Compared to other countries this is a very long time. In the last 150+ years the filipinas and china have under gone how many major regime changes and how many minor ones.
So if you read about settlers in USA/Canada 100+ years ago. People would help each other out. The motivation for this was indirectly ulteristic which has been build into us because of evolution.

Simplest case caveman ITTO and caveman nop. ITTO is a great hunter. I am not very good with hunting but ITTO takes me along because I tell good stories, and I help pass the time will ITTO waits for the big mamoth to come. ITTO breaks his leg. Initially the logical thing would appear to be to say bad luck ITTO. Looks like you are going to die. But ......
If I help ITTO out, then when his leg gets better, then he will be able to hunt again well. Also he will put in a good word with his brother perks another good hunter. As a result I will be a lot better off in the long term Obviously perks and ITTO will share with me the results of thier successful future hunts .
So reality is this concept of relationship is very "primitive". It will win because "stability" is an anormality.

The winds of war can always change. A regime change etc. You are down on your luck. So in these periods you call in your favors.
Again the people who you have called the favors in from, are banking that you will get back on your feet. In the event that they do not live up to their promises and you do get onto your feet again, they will be in a world of hurt
And this is the concept that majority of westerners can not get into their heads

[perkiset]

When I was young and an aspiring musician I had a very different view from a lot of my contemporaries.

To many, other musicians were competition ... The guy to beat - as if THAT guy was going to take the last slot on the way to stardom ever offered.

I saw other musicians as my best friends. If I was always helpful, likeable and respectful, then when they became famous and needed a keyboard player the odds were better that they'd call me.

That attitude, in virtually every aspect of my life, has served me extraordinarily well.

[isthisthingon]

ITTO great hunter 

[arms]

im sorry i just skimmed through these posts but a couple things struck me with regards to dealing with people in general.

If you like bargirls or other such things. Keep them in the club where they belong. Your wife/children are a reflection upon yourself.

i personally will not have anything to do with people who are open adulterers or womanizers.
we all have weaknesses and it's not an "i'm better than you" thing but if you openly betray your family you cannot be trusted at any level.
also, i view womanizing the same as a drug addiction.

the way someone deals with their family is a very good measure of their character in any society.

When I was young and an aspiring musician I had a very different view from a lot of my contemporaries.

To many, other musicians were competition ... The guy to beat - as if THAT guy was going to take the last slot on the way to stardom ever offered.

I saw other musicians as my best friends. If I was always helpful, likeable and respectful, then when they became famous and needed a keyboard player the odds were better that they'd call me.

That attitude, in virtually every aspect of my life, has served me extraordinarily well.

i think that attitude is what brings the best together.

the jealous and envious types seem to bring each other down eventually.

it seems to me this jealous, zero-sum attitude has become more and more prevalent in society. maybe it has always been this way and i am just looking times past with more favour than they merit.

it's been a while since i worked in an office but my wife has some crazy stories... you wouldn't believe the jealousy and pettyness displayed by supposedly educated professional adults. it's like they watch survivor and big brother and try to act it out at work.

sorry my post went a bit off topic nop.

[nop_90]

im sorry i just skimmed through these posts but a couple things struck me with regards to dealing with people in general.

If you like bargirls or other such things. Keep them in the club where they belong. Your wife/children are a reflection upon yourself.

i personally will not have anything to do with people who are open adulterers or womanizers.
we all have weaknesses and it's not an "i'm better than you" thing but if you openly betray your family you cannot be trusted at any level.
also, i view womanizing the same as a drug addiction.

the way someone deals with their family is a very good measure of their character in any society.

I guess you will not be doing much business in asia 
It is a different thing here. Like all things in asia, nothing is black and white.
In a nutshell what asians consider moral and westerners consider moral often are direct opposites.
Throwing your kids out of the house when they turn 18 in many asian cultures is considered barbaric.
Throwing your parents/grand parents into an old folks home same story.
Not having a family member or friend stay with you 24 and 7 when u are in the hospital is considered uncaring.

All i will say is failing to keep an open mind is a guaranted road to failure when dealing with other cultures.
When it comes to USA that is probably the number 1 fault they have, and is leading directly to the decline of the American Empire.

With me I do not argue morality. Lots of books on that subject
I am a pragmatist, and I will just argue the best ways to get the job done

[kurdt]

It's a little known "fact" that there's probably not a single person alive who can make a computer mouse from start to finish. You would have to know how to drill oil for plastic, how to create electronic components, etc. This example demonstrates perfectly how the whole human society relies on specialized factions of humans to share their expertize with other people. When their expertise produce a concrete physical item like let's say a gallon of oil, another person can combine this item with other items from other experts to create something that again can be used to produce something and the cycle continues. Now what nop says makes perfect sense. Relationship based economy not only accelerates the progression but it also strengthens societies. I have a theory that too much stability like what US and Finland has had turns people into a creatures that look only to satisfy their own needs because there just isn't any real reason to help others to help yourself. In other words this leads to societies where people are only doing things to obtain something for themselves regardless what happens to others. In a society that's facing real threads like let's say a violent coup, these type of people will be cut down pretty quickly and those who contribute and share will reap huge benefits. This same model works in a society that's running steady but for some reason the past century has shown that humans "forget" these ways and turn into self-satisfying animals using their brainpower to only serve themselves.

[isthisthingon]

It is a different thing here. Like all things in asia, nothing is black and white.
In a nutshell what asians consider moral and westerners consider moral often are direct opposites.
Throwing your kids out of the house when they turn 18 in many asian cultures is considered barbaric.
Throwing your parents/grand parents into an old folks home same story.
Not having a family member or friend stay with you 24 and 7 when u are in the hospital is considered uncaring.

Excellent points.  The way westerners value money and rank its importance, trumping even family at times, is considered sleazy in many cultures as well.  In countries like Argentina, Belize, and all over Europe, it's also obvious that the experience of eating food is 100% different than here in America.  This may seem like a small issue but it's really not.  It's a key social connection time where people usually stop talking about making money and discuss things like art, music, politics and various other passions.  Americans seem like face-stuffing money robots by contrast to such colorful cultures.  The notion of a drive-through is a total joke where the importance of having this meaningful connection time is completely devalued 

This same model works in a society that's running steady but for some reason the past century has shown that humans "forget" these ways and turn into self-satisfying animals using their brainpower to only serve themselves.

 

[nop_90]

What itto and kurdt said.
Majority of the foriegners I meet in PH that settle here and the natives do not want to kill are believe it or not germans.
Most of the germans have been doing trade with asia for the last 30+ years.
My german nieghbor told me that VW was the first western company to open an auto factory in china and now VW has 40% of chinese market share.
Then again because of american political policies, cuba is like the best example they are thier own worst enemy.
And we see how effective american embargo on cuba is

China has a long way to go, but it is a hell of a lot freer then it was 30 years ago. Even in the last 2 years amazing progress has been made.
The communist party is now saying that as part of great Mao vision, and the continuation towards capitalism market economy, that they will probably be a true democracy in 10-15 years.