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Author Topic: Question for the Cache re: Google  (Read 5079 times)
isthisthingon
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« on: October 14, 2009, 01:28:35 PM »

I have a general question regarding the apparently negative feelings the Cache seems to have towards Google.  Comments like the following are common:
Quote
I'm not so thrilled about Wave. I think Google has gone from "do no evil" to "do evil but pray people continue to be idiots". Now that Wave is coming.. well, say hello to Google's complete domination and loss of privacy.

My question is this: taking privacy concerns completely out of the picture, what is your personal gripe with Google (to all, not kurdt specifically)?  I ask because I can't seem to reconcile the degree of heat they receive with their actual business practices, or at least what I know of them personally.  I can understand so many valid complaints about M$, Apple, IBM, Oracle etc. but the ridiculous: "do no evil" claim aside, aren't they worthy of more respect from the tech world?  I mean they get about as much respect on the Cache these days as Monoposoft  Shocked

Chrome is just as much of a privacy concern as IE, Safari, FF and Opera but people refuse to accept this.  In fact, Chrome was ahead of it's time with a stealth browsing option, admittedly to remove the stink of their data policies with other products.  But what am I missing here?  Is being an increasingly large thorn in Apple's side causing the anger or something else I don't know about?  For all the heat I receive for disapproving of Apple's re-"sale" policies, I'm totally at a loss trying to understand why a company is "bad" in any way whatsoever for offering a FREE service that is justified by the value of the data they collect, yet another company is righteously right for throwing you in prison if you decompile, disassemble or reverse engineer their software, modify or create derivative works of their software, or simply make a second backup to store off-site Huh? 

These policies are passionately supported as a company's "right" to impose on the world, trumping our personal rights and freedoms, without even as much as a "yeah, that does suck" from some.  This is incredibly strange to me since privacy concerns can't possibly be greater than being stripped of all personal rights while doing hard time for "piracy".

Any factual, non-privacy concern examples of bad Google behavior would be greatly appreciated.  TY Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 01:45:35 PM »

i should hate them.
I had just shy of 6 digits in my adsense account when they canned me, with no recourse.

that type of behavior is where most of the animosity comes from for those of us from the darker realm.
Many of us know how two-faced Google actually is.
How the "do no evil" mantra is a complete and utter farce.
How they have double standards.
How they pretend that everything is A-OK with the engine, when it is not.

That said, they have some great products. I use, and recommend to almost all my clients to use, Google apps for domains. However, now the recent concern with the stupidity of backups and such with other big services, now has me a bit concerned for a backup solution to make sure we have our emails. Personal grudges do not affect my decision abilities.
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 01:55:27 PM »

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I had just shy of 6 digits in my adsense account when they canned me, with no recourse.

 Shocked  Totally get it. 

Quote
that type of behavior is where most of the animosity comes from for those of us from the darker realm.
Many of us know how two-faced Google actually is.
How the "do no evil" mantra is a complete and utter farce.
How they have double standards.

This is what I hear but I can't put a face on any of those assertions...

Quote
How they pretend that everything is A-OK with the engine, when it is not.

Got it.  Concrete example - thanks.

Quote
Personal grudges do not affect my decision abilities.

Ditto for others I support.  But I'll avoid throwing personal money at companies with grievous ethical violations and other "bad" behavior as I define it.
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 02:18:21 PM »

oh of course.

I think a lot of the personal grudges people have with G is the fact that a lot of the stuff they have access to COULD be used for bad. Or is perceived as a privacy violation.

Remember cookies? The evil of the intarwebs!!!!
puh leez. Cookies have NEVER been able to be read by companies other than the ones who have access to that cookie, via the domain.
But people still freak out.

In google its the ads. Ads in email seems to freak people out. OMG they r in my emailz! DUH. You are using a service provided by an outside company. Of course they can read your shit... But seriously, they don't care about your fetish for fuzzy turd dolls. The software may, to target ads to you, but BFD. I am profiled and tracked by my grocery store, my bank, my phone company, my cable company, my credit card companies, etc etc etc.
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 02:20:51 PM »

I do not like Google, a bit. Larry & Sergey started great and I love the idea of Google but they soon became corporate whores. The moment Google went public it went fucked. Now they are dancing the dance shareholders play. I think one of the things I really hate in Google is that they don't share the data they collect even they claim to support researchers. Also their policies are starting to annoy me really bad. They went from little to huge so fast it got to their heads. Now basically they do what they want. If they don't like your business in their services they kick you out. I understand that pure fraud should be dealt with very strict rules but as you can read from the forums, Google is doing pretty fucking lousy job at that. For example my Adwords account got banned because of their mistake and they were not willing to admit it. When I talked with different customer service dudes, I got different explanations from spyware distribution thru my ads to bad credit cards. Finally I found out that the real reason was too many declined ads. They kept declining my ascii ads long time after I had disabled the campaign and then they decided that there were too many declines. So basically it was a mistake in their system because it didn't mark ads as disabled.

I'm really happy when the day comes that Google comes crashing down and believe me that day will come. It will be great history lesson for new generations what can happen when your company grows too fast.

Oh, and about their technology. First of all, the public innovations that they have released are frankly pretty fucking lame. If that's all they can do with all the people they have hired... it's just really lame. All the things Google has released (excluding their search engine of course) have been done before and usually better. It's only the Google brand that fools people who don't know any better that Google was the original inventor. With all the data Google has, their applications and services are pretty pathetic.
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 02:43:56 PM »

i fully agree that their public facing stuff is nothing special. However, the big leaps and important stuff is behind the scenes. Basically unlimited storage for almost free, is a pretty hard one to have accomplished, and their front facing stuff is just an interface to that. Or at least thats how I view it.
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 03:15:32 PM »

Quote
For example my Adwords account got banned because of their mistake and they were not willing to admit it. When I talked with different customer service dudes, I got different explanations from spyware distribution thru my ads to bad credit cards. Finally I found out that the real reason was too many declined ads. They kept declining my ascii ads long time after I had disabled the campaign and then they decided that there were too many declines. So basically it was a mistake in their system because it didn't mark ads as disabled.

Along with @nuts, I totally understand this.  I've never invested serious cash in them so perhaps that's what I'm missing.  I actually have a complaint against Skype for taking pre-pay cash from my card that can never be used for my $2.99 per month recurring fee to use their service.  It's not a large amount and I love them otherwise so I've let it go.  But in your case and with 5.9 digit nuts I'd be pissed too.  Support in discount services is always terrible IMO.  Salesforce, for example, requires me to be the absolute expert and handle everything on my own with nothing but thousands of pages of documentation to assist me. 

Quote
The moment Google went public it went fucked. Now they are dancing the dance shareholders play.

I definitely understand this sentiment.

Quote
I'm really happy when the day comes that Google comes crashing down and believe me that day will come. It will be great history lesson for new generations what can happen when your company grows too fast.

 ROFLMAO Now that's the kind of heat I'm talkin about Wink  Hard to say for sure but they're big enough to reinvent themselves multiple times and suffer severe losses before completely crashing to the ground.  As far as innovation is concerned, they haven't exactly been industry leaders, though they've managed to produce some nice server-side offerings.  But they understand what Apple, M$ and others still haven't really appreciated yet, at least based on their behavior: give it away and it will come back.  Google Apps, for example, was a concept that Google simply "saw" and understood the value of having the world build your worth, not some pyramid shaped team of geniuses.  Jobs does NOT get this and by all rights why SHOULD he?  His successes and personal wealth are doing just fine.

Monoposoft, however, has been much more of a massive "corporation" than Apple and therefore has a broader base of decision makers.  This is why M$ has been lamely attempting to respond to this new "open/cloud world" that they know damn well is nipping at the heels of their dominance.  Apple will try to hang on by imprisoning those who attempt to replace any portion of their growing domain of "ownership."  That's the stated reason for denying Google Voice a place in the App Store - it "replicates existing iPhone functionality."  Can't have that  Roll Eyes

Quote
In google its the ads. Ads in email seems to freak people out. OMG they r in my emailz! DUH. You are using a service provided by an outside company. Of course they can read your shit... But seriously, they don't care about your fetish for fuzzy turd dolls. The software may, to target ads to you, but BFD. I am profiled and tracked by my grocery store, my bank, my phone company, my cable company, my credit card companies, etc etc etc.

"You have zero privacy anyway.  Get over it." - Scott McNealy, 1999
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 03:45:11 PM »

...what is your personal gripe with Google (to all, not kurdt specifically)?

Remember where a lot of the members here came from ITTO (The Synkd8) meaning that there's a large BH component that's had to deal with the "well, is that really evil or can we get away with it?" sort of attitude that they seem to have had at times. There are untold numbers of stories like Nuts ... like G waiting till payday after a month's earnings to say, "You've been a nasty spammer. Thanks for driving the ads out to clients (for which we'll charge) but since you're out of the TOS, you'll not be getting cent 1. And BTW, Go away now. We're done with you."

I think there's also a natural distrust since they are just so friggin big and ubiquitous ... and there've been talks that we've had here about their capability to literally rewrite history, since the net has become iEncyclopediaBrittanica. Personally, I think they know enough about me, I just don't choose AT ALL to make it any easier for them to continue to scrape and categorize me.

That job is for Facebook  ROFLMAO ROFLMAO ROFLMAO
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2009, 04:00:42 PM »

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There are untold numbers of stories like Nuts ... like G waiting till payday after a month's earnings to say, "You've been a nasty spammer. Thanks for driving the ads out to clients (for which we'll charge) but since you're out of the TOS, you'll not be getting cent 1. And BTW, Go away now. We're done with you."

Gotcha.  Nope I'm not aware of all the SEO trials people have been through with them so that I can also completely understand.  TY Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 10:46:32 PM »

Quote
I'm really happy when the day comes that Google comes crashing down and believe me that day will come. It will be great history lesson for new generations what can happen when your company grows too fast.

 ROFLMAO Now that's the kind of heat I'm talkin about Wink  Hard to say for sure but they're big enough to reinvent themselves multiple times and suffer severe losses before completely crashing to the ground.  As far as innovation is concerned, they haven't exactly been industry leaders, though they've managed to produce some nice server-side offerings.  But they understand what Apple, M$ and others still haven't really appreciated yet, at least based on their behavior: give it away and it will come back.  Google Apps, for example, was a concept that Google simply "saw" and understood the value of having the world build your worth, not some pyramid shaped team of geniuses.  Jobs does NOT get this and by all rights why SHOULD he?  His successes and personal wealth are doing just fine.
Here's funny thing. When companies are big, people never believe they can collapse. When they collapse, people are always like "I should have seen that coming". Just think Enron.

Google is not giving away, that's my whole point. You pay them by giving them A LOT of data. Data is Google's business and it's the currency of the future. What was the reason why Adwords grew so fast? It offered very good targeting options from keywords to geotargeting. Only thing Google is giving away is services you can find anywhere else for free too. Email, search engine, browser, analytics and so on.

In my opinion Google is kind of middle phase. It's traditional corporation but it touches some of the principles of business that will be big in the future. And trust me, Google is coming down. Google once helped government to destroy Microsoft with their monopoly charges, now the same people are after Google with same accusations. Karma is a bitch. Google is a classic story of innovative and smart people who ultimately got destroyed by their greed.

Quote
Monoposoft, however, has been much more of a massive "corporation" than Apple and therefore has a broader base of decision makers.  This is why M$ has been lamely attempting to respond to this new "open/cloud world" that they know damn well is nipping at the heels of their dominance.  Apple will try to hang on by imprisoning those who attempt to replace any portion of their growing domain of "ownership."  That's the stated reason for denying Google Voice a place in the App Store - it "replicates existing iPhone functionality."  Can't have that  Roll Eyes
Microsoft doesn't have anything to worry about. You put it right, Monoposoft. People can bash, scream, kick and cry about Windows all day long but still big big majority of them go home and boot up Windows. They will be the king of the hill until fast broadband hits every home... oh boy if they still have so unsatisfied users, then it's going to be hell to pay for Microsoft. But you also have to remember that OS is only one part of Microsoft's empire. There's Xbox 360 that dominates consoles (PS3 people, just shut up and read the sales figures) and there's lots of other software products that are doing very well.

Quote
In google its the ads. Ads in email seems to freak people out. OMG they r in my emailz! DUH. You are using a service provided by an outside company. Of course they can read your shit... But seriously, they don't care about your fetish for fuzzy turd dolls. The software may, to target ads to you, but BFD. I am profiled and tracked by my grocery store, my bank, my phone company, my cable company, my credit card companies, etc etc etc.
It's not the ads. It's the unspoken stuff what happens to your data and that it's inaccessible to you. People doesn't seem to understand what can happen when that amount of data is available to governments and other agencies. Remember all those sci-fi movies where human race lives under strict control.. well that's only possible if you have data for everybody. Otherwise it's next to impossible to pull off because you can't estimate what certain people will do unless you have data about their activities, social circle, locations, etc.

Quote
"You have zero privacy anyway.  Get over it." - Scott McNealy, 1999
Well, there's difference between you been able to take advantage of your own data and somebody collecting it without even telling you what exactly is been collected.
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2009, 06:42:20 AM »

for me it's mostly weariness of their size and desire to collect information.
the nature of our work is also adversarial with regards to google. i also don't like having to depend almost entirely on them for traffic - though that's not something i can fault them for as an organization.

aside from the things nutballs and perk mentioned - (we take your traffic, charge someone else for it and fuck off with your cut) - which is simply dishonest monopolistic bullying of smaller business entities, what really bothers me is more their worshippers. google is not a charitable organization. they are a big company that tries to dominate. just because it makes statements like "do no evil" doesn't mean everything it does is benevolent. in fact everything it does is to dominate and expand, just like microsoft. the only diffference is no one pretends microsoft is run by jolly and pure woodland critters. so while i appreciate google pr efforts and marketing, i get the willies from the people who believe they are the easter bunny.
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2009, 11:35:08 AM »

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Google is a classic story of innovative and smart people who ultimately got destroyed by their greed.

Perhaps this will be the story.  However, the street looks quite different these days:



Quote
Microsoft doesn't have anything to worry about. You put it right, Monoposoft. People can bash, scream, kick and cry about Windows all day long but still big big majority of them go home and boot up Windows. They will be the king of the hill until fast broadband hits every home... oh boy if they still have so unsatisfied users, then it's going to be hell to pay for Microsoft. But you also have to remember that OS is only one part of Microsoft's empire. There's Xbox 360 that dominates consoles (PS3 people, just shut up and read the sales figures) and there's lots of other software products that are doing very well.

 Ditto

Quote
aside from the things nutballs and perk mentioned - (we take your traffic, charge someone else for it and fuck off with your cut) - which is simply dishonest monopolistic bullying of smaller business entities, what really bothers me is more their worshippers. google is not a charitable organization. they are a big company that tries to dominate. just because it makes statements like "do no evil" doesn't mean everything it does is benevolent. in fact everything it does is to dominate and expand, just like microsoft. the only diffference is no one pretends microsoft is run by jolly and pure woodland critters. so while i appreciate google pr efforts and marketing, i get the willies from the people who believe they are the easter bunny.

Gotcha - thanks arms.  Meetings for days today!  TTFN...
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2009, 11:46:23 AM »

Hypocrisy.

What is good for the goose is not good for the gander. Large sites with name brands and lots of volume can cloak, but I can't?

Also, blatant misinformation. Matt Cutts cannot be trusted, he has a documented history of saying things that are half-truths or blatant lies in order to mislead SEOs and make Google's job easier. I completely understand his position but I do not tolerate out-and-out dishonesty.

Bottom line is their contempt for my profession. They keep telling us that we shouldn't need SEOs, but that will never be true until they can fix their product. They tell us to "design websites for users and not for search"...well, search exists and it's a driving factor to my bottom line, so get used to my business using yours - it's called a mutually beneficial relationship. Google has never been a fan of mutually beneficial relationships, they want to own everything themselves. A classic example is a certain client of mine whose business model is being poo-poo'ed. Not because it's not a legitimate business model, oh no nothing like that. Google has flat out told us that they don't like our business model because *they want the revenue it generates for themselves*. So instead of sending organic traffic to my client's site, they've confided in me that they will be phasing the site out of their organic results altogether in order to show their own product placements...IN ORGANIC SEARCH RESULTS.

Yeah, that's why I hate Google.
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2009, 11:48:25 AM »

However, the street looks quite different these days:
Yes, it sure does:
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2009, 11:51:54 AM »

Zactly.
The best day ever, will be the day when an SEO cannot affect the search results.
Never will happen, but that would be a great day. I would happily lose out on those SEO opportunities to get a better search experience.

Lol @ Kurdt
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