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Author Topic: Not a good article for Android or OSS ... Looking for ITTO's take  (Read 4972 times)
perkiset
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« on: August 02, 2010, 10:49:03 PM »

OK, yes it's an Apple site, but read the content and the message:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/08/02/piracy_problems_undermine_androids_growth_against_iphone.html

I'd really like to hear ITTO's comments on how open source and open, free software is making those people *more* money, which is the promise of FOSS. Or at least that option is, in fact, better for really anyone other than the folks that think it's totally fine for them to have the works without paying for it ... and how that incentivizes more invention.

I'm not being argumentative here, but just really don't see it.
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 03:43:15 PM »

This is like digging up the rancid roots of a Fox News story yet deeper.  Fox News just parrots clips from The Drudge Report or some such and treats it as gospel.  In this case we have one game development business expressing their opinion and Apple jumping on board, treating the "facts" like some epidemic that threatens Android's very future. 

Here's to that:  ROFLMAO ROFLMAO ROFLMAO

Andriod, despite this certainly factual plague of piracy  Roll Eyes just said goodbye to the iPhone and probably will never be 2'nd place again: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/android-sales-surge-surpass-iphone-updated/2019

Now to address this stinky chunk of anecdotal misinformation, we're talking about the opinion of a single game development shop.  Game development is about as DRM-infected as Hollywood, and almost as warped as Apple.  But from this intentionally focused perspective there does seem to be a nugget of truth to it.  This nugget is this.  This game development company would make more money - without changing their business model - if the law simply worked harder to siphon more cash for them, delivering it to their door.  The problem with this logic is when the macro considerations are in view, like Android's business momentum and success that just passed our proprietary princess of perpetual profits, or simply "Apple," then this is revealed for what it is: a lazy attempt to get more for doing less. 

But for the love of repetition perks, why would you even ask something that we all know you will be "unable to understand?" Wink
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 03:45:07 PM »

I'm not being argumentative here, but just really don't see it.
Nothing wrong with being argumentative, if you have a point Smiley. If you are someone like the teabagger party who just spouts rhetoric then different story.

Honestly I do not see it myself, but on the other hand I do not see the apple solution as anything more then a stop gap solution that will last anything more then 3-5 years also. The crux of the problem is as the article points out

Quote
According to a report by Jay Yarow of Silicon Alley Insider, a developer of one of Android's top ten apps is seeing 97 percent of players in Asia using an illegal copy, 70 percent in Europe, and 43 percent in North America.

Basically the above quote illustrates 1/2 of the problem. Apple is having significant problems making in roads in asia. Piracy here is rampant, and despite all efforts of the gov'ts it can not be stomped out. IPhone has a very bad reputation in PH, it is viewed as over priced, and the big point is that it is locked. PH/Asian consumers will not tolerate that. Official statistics are useless here, but just from asking around probably 50% of iphones here are "illegals". As in relatives have sent them in from USA/Europe, they are jailbroken. In any major shopping mall, there is a iphone "jail breaking service", where u just give them the iphone, they jail break it and install on it what u want. It seems to me I am the only guy in PH who actually legitimately bought an iphone, and who has not jailbroken it Smiley.

The other 1/2 of the problem can be illustrated by rent a coder. Take a look at how much some of those projects are and how much the winning bids are. Many projects 1 week work for as little as $100. So even if the apple model by some miracle takes hold, the app that the american makes for $2.5, the indian/chinese can make for $0.25 and actually end up making more money (In terms of standard of living).

I keep on harping about asia, and must sound like a broken record. The following figures are approximate. It took Britain 200 years to become a developed nation. USA 100 years. Japan 50 years. Singapore and South Korea ~30 years. According to the projections China will achieve the same thing in 15 years (2015). The mentioned nations are of chinese extraction (the analogy give is "dragon" or "tiger"). Also thrown into the bag are indonesia, India and Malaysia, these are "elephant" nations, unlike the dragon they are slow and plodding, but they keep on going forward. In indonesia 10% of the population is "rich". It might not sound like much, but when the population is 220 million ..... Singapore and South Korea are basically a prelude to what is going to happen with china. By 2015 there will be 100 million chinese that will be making $25K+ a year which is the same as making $150K+ in USA.

My brother is visiting from america. We have been talking about the "crisis" there. I heard about the crisis, but it never really hit home. Construction here is booming. 3 new resorts have been constructed in the last year. Also Koreans now count for 30%+ of all tourists in PH. The old korean was just happy having enough to eat Smiley. The new korean has disposable income. S/he wants to explore the outside world, see new things etc. China/Singapore/Korea have a large coastline but their beaches such shit. In a nutshell you can not "compete" with the "tigers" but you have to offer something which they can not product themselves.

Also another factor is westerners on the surface appear to be very agressive, but in actuality they are very docile. Asians are the exact opposite. The crap that is happening in USA, if it would have happened in PH the gov't would have been over thrown ages ago. On the beach front property which I purchased, a fast moving filipino has attempted to block access to my land with a "land grab". But at the same time he is blocking access to other filipinos. I think initially he made the assumption that since I was a foriegner he would be able to get away with it. I went to the area and started talking to the filipinos. They are very angry. They are saying that my development will provide jobs for them etc. In the mean time they have built a barb wire barricade and are guarding it to prevent this man from expanding his land grab. In the event that he will send guards there to push the people back it will end up in a mini "people power" which will not be a pretty sight. This is always a constant danger in asia.

So in a nutshell perks, I do not see a good future in actual selling of apps/software products. But not for the same reason you do Smiley. The only solution I can come up with is offering a product/service which can not be "mechanized". So in the case of a realestate type service, you will need someone to show the client the actual property for sale. The actual processing of the papers for the sale can not be "mechanized". Also the actual construction of the house can not be "mechanized".

Anyway my 2 cents.
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 05:56:13 PM »

 ROFLMAO @ITTO: the fallacies in your argument are pretty stellar. I'd have to admit, that coming from you, equating me to Fox news is a new one. Well, kinda sorta.

As I imagined, you have no real argument about how this sort of attitude protects anyone other than the folks that want things for free. It is pretty laughable to me that the person that needs protecting is the game player, rather than the game author.

Honestly, if it made more sense, or did in fact produce more money, it would be understandable. Even by the likes of me  Roll Eyes Simple question man: in your view of "give away the abundant and charge for the scarce (my words here) how do they do that in this case? Write little games, give them away and then charge for consulting?

yeah. that's gonna buy them a big boat. 
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2010, 05:57:44 PM »

@nop FFS mate, you must type faster than me  ROFLMAO have to read and grok yours later
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2010, 08:22:29 PM »

AppleInsider = Fox "News", not perks.  The poor game "author" that you believe needs protection is a business, mr. dood, not a person.  The ones who scream the loudest and scream behind the puppets parading around as victims are the mega corps pulling the strings, yours included.  They help make policy by convincing people with good intentions, such as yourself, that all hell will break loose and the world will come to an end unless these "pirates" are stopped.  No actually the only thing that will come to an end, the part that's true and shared equally with the big record companies you also seem to side with, is that the kind of insanely disproportionate distribution of wealth to the mega corps as opposed to the actual artists will finally be leveled out.  Producers/game companies will need to add more value to retain their glutinous revenue expectations, probably in some adjacent scarcity that needs leveraging.  The developers in your anecdotal example are employees of a company too stupid, lazy or uncreative to contemplate any other form of revenue stream than:

1. Grunts write software for us
2. We get paid for this, they get paychecks and zero future when they stop writing software for us
3. Get sick huge residuals from game sales and don't compensate the artists (developers) for this at all

What you're helping to promote are the fortunes created after the developers/artists are paid.  You're also helping to promote the concentration of artistic works in relatively few and powerful corporations who control this space, or at least still try to.  But it's definitely true that company X who employed 100 developers to crank out games which would make them billions in residuals will wind up reducing staff to 25 or even going out of business in the new era of Free.  Those who can't "think outside of the box" are already dead but they just don't know it yet.  Electronic Arts currently has a market cap of 5.3 billion dollars.  This perpetuated amassing of wealth is only sustained by the artificial structure imposed through legally enforcing that the box (Xbox 360) is required to play the games (GTA 90000) and if you try to jailbreak it - or especially jailbreak other people's Xboxes for them - you will serve hard time in prison.  Here's to that  Vomit, and thanks for supporting them  Sad

Remember, if what you produce is essentially digital as is the case with music, software and movies, your works will become Free whether you like it or not.  People will get it for free, and I know that's hard to deal with Wink 

On a different yet related subject, and one that's constantly misunderstood, there are plenty of idealist reasons that support Free Software (as in Freedom) such as eliminating the digital divide and the wrongful persecution of good people just wanting to experience what you and I take for granted.  But defending the rights of businesses looking down the wrong alley to make their fortunes doesn't even register on that scale, so please keep these separate in your mind  Police

(somehow I just knew you would bring this subject up again  ROFLMAO)
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 08:44:36 PM »

@ perks and itto

Sgt. Barnes: Ya smoke this shit so to escape from reality? Me, I don't need this shit. I am reality. There's the way it ought to be, and there's the way it is.

.....

Sgt. Barnes: Elias was full of shit. Elias was a crusader. Now I got no problem with any man does what he's told, but when he don't, the machine breaks down. And when the machine breaks down, WE break down. And I'm not gonna allow that, from any of you. Not one.

.....

Bunny: I told the padre the truth, man: I like it here. You get to do what you want. Nobody fucks with you. The only worry you got is dyin', and if that happens you won't know about it anyway. So what the fuck, man?

.....

I think now, looking back, we did not fight the enemy, we fought ourselves, and the enemy was in us. The war is over for me now, but it will always be there, the rest of my days. As I'm sure Elias will be, fighting with Barnes for what Rhah calls "possesion of my soul." There are times since, I've felt like a child, born of those two fathers. But be that as it may, those who did make it have an obligation to build again. To teach to others what we know, and to try with whats left of our lives to find a goodness and a meaning to this life.

They don't make good movies anymore.
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 11:02:57 PM »

Nop has THE BEST spambots in the business, hands down.  Praise

@ITTO and grunts do the dev: man that's a huge generalization and i think you'd be hard pressed to prove that the majority of apps at the iTunes store are large corporate predators and not either small houses or onesy twosy.

But your question puzzles me: how and where do you define who should profit, continue to profit or maintain royalties for developed works? I realize that you think there should be no such thing, but that is neither realistic or fair. At what point does an entity go from ronin to small team to big team to Satan?

I'm curious how you think corporations can continue to fund employees (the grunts you speak of) with an eye to the future if they cannot at least count on some profit / annuity from the works derived thereof? Who would be willing to take the risk of hiring employees if there's no long term profit motive?   
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2010, 10:23:58 AM »

>But your question puzzles me: how and where do you define who should profit, continue to profit or maintain royalties for developed works?

Just behind your question lies the real point of this whole thing.  By and large you do not stand for the artists.  You stand for the profiteers.  It's just that standing for the profiteers isn't all that popular, and for good reason.  They don't need a champion since wealth serves as their protector.  Those who also profit in significant amounts, or have in the past, or plan to in the future as business owners, can't help but stand up for the profiteers to soothe their own consciences.  Others just don't even care, but those who need to feel good about their contributions and also dedicate a considerable amount of their conscious life to the acquisition of wealth seem tirelessly dedicated to the re-framing of this effort into something more widely accepted as "noble."  This gets worse as we age and the yearning for legacy nips at the heels of our previously unhindered acquisition quest (see Bill Gates).  It's not for God, country, the children or even the artists.  It's just the thinly veiled money game we play.  The only difference between how nop plays it, for example, is he's up front about it.

The slippery slope from sole proprietor to Satan is a ruse, and you know it.  And you do not "realize" that I believe there should be no profits in the world since this is false and false.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to profit.  But keep it real and be honest about it   Idea...

It's the potential for great profits that's being defended, not "artists."  So again, cool and groovy on the cash mission.  Balls to that.  But the artist/free market/authors/writers/individual liberty/required incentives/linchpin of civilization/necessary stimulus/blah/blah masks we constantly cover this money mission up with are downright insidious.  Yes insidious.  This mostly subconscious effort by the hidden champions of money show up as Jujitsu attempts to prove at least one tiny flaw in the armor of non-followers.

Stepping back from the whole argument, think about how full of poop it appears to have perks defending Android programmers  ROFLMAO ROFLMAO  Last I checked you were still firmly in the Apple camp Wink  What then, sir perks, are you defending??  Sarcasm
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2010, 10:41:18 AM »

>In a nutshell you can not "compete" with the "tigers" but you have to offer something which they can not product themselves.

Very true.  And you make some great points, not least of which is the rate difference between otherwise equivalent talent.  This perfectly illustrates the problem with artificially trying to secure a fixed $ exchange for X amount of coding effort, since rent-a-coders have completely different financial profiles which tip the scales.  Just the difference in currency exchange rates alone invalidates any lasting plans to impose X fees for Y software development.

But as you've said many times before: it's not about good or should or right or wrong.  It just is.
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2010, 10:58:27 AM »

ITTO your perception of the world is so very black and white.

How delightful it would be, if there was an all knowing benevolent dictator that could accurately decide who is an artist and who is a corporate predator ... who is a small team that is true of heart and who is just in it for the money and should be spanked. The problem is that if we want anyone to profit, then everyone will. I recognize that you have an anarchic and egalitarian view of what would be utopia, but it's neither going to happen nor would it be good.

I have no religion about Apple, nor do I dislike Android programmers - endeavoring to box me in simply lessens your argument. As you of all people know, I've probably forgotten more programming languages and systems than most will ever learn. I *LIKE* Apple. I really enjoy the products. This doesn't mean I dislike others, although I do have a healthy disdain for M$ - and they have earned it. My opinion about Android is that it/they are the ONLY real threat to Apple in that space. Bearing in mind though, that Android in and of itself is no threat - it's only if manufacturers can create products that really compete. So it's Verizon (x) vs. the iPhone etc. Apple vs. Android is like Toyota against automobile patents.

Your argument, perpetually, is that there's more money (whether your a musician or a programmer for example) if you give your work away. I say that's bullshit. If you have a method for making money that can take advantage of a giveaway then you've got it - but this cannot work for everyone. In fact, it only works so well for some because of the existence of paid works by others. The point is rather simply IMO:
  • The most valuable commodity we have/own is our own time
  • If I choose to use a little of that commodity, create something of marginal value in efforts to make more money elsewhere, that is my prerogative.
  • If I speculate that, by using a tremendous amount of my time I can create something really special (like years of dev for a game) then I'd like to be remunerated for that effort or gamble. If I am a corporation that hires many programmers to do this (now wagering the capital of the investors) then I (as a corporation) would like to be remunerated for that effort.
  • If my game is AWESOME and free, it will go all over the world. I can ask for donations all I want, but the odds that I will be (or I as the corp) remunerated are HUGELY diminished.

Without the notion of profit or annuity, investment dries up because it's safer to put your money into something that WILL make money, rather than something that will be given away. No capital, no corp, no artists or grunt developers.

You may not like it at all (duh) but it is the unfortunate requirement that people pay for works that must be enforced because the majority of the world has no understanding of value, nor are they willing to give up their treasure if they can have the (thing) without doing so.. We do not have a populace of well intentioned, integrous (sp?) people. In this country particularly, it's me first ... I've got mine, WGAF about you. Just listen to the talk shows, right wing demagogues and look at the polls and you know I am correct.

The problem is that you view the world as being as honorable as you would choose to be.
That they would keep their word as you would.
That they would understand value as you do.

This is just not the case.
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2010, 02:00:03 PM »

>ITTO your perception of the world is so very black and white.   ROFLMAO  That's awesome - LOL.

Quote
How delightful it would be, if there was an all knowing benevolent dictator that could accurately decide who is an artist and who is a corporate predator

 Shocked  I'd kill myself.  What a terrible world that would be.  In that awful place, the joys of contributing from the heart would be diminished and labeled as concessions to the man upstairs.

Quote
who is a small team that is true of heart and who is just in it for the money and should be spanked.

Here's where the self-loathing comes in.  Nobody should be spanked perks.  Nobody did anything wrong.  There's nothing wrong with wanting to profit and nobody needs a spanking.  Profit is fine - I just like to call it what it is: profit, not some critical aspect of an overly-complicated system that will crumble without ever expanding profit as the key motivator driving it.  To prove my point, just look at all the employees in the world who are totally happy with a paycheck and just hope to have enough left over when they can't work anymore.  This is actually the majority, not some fringe anarchist minority. 

@Android programmers - you totally missed the point.  It's not that you dislike them at all.  It's that the real motivator behind the post from you to Apple to the original stories referenced has ZILCH to do with concern for Android programmers or programmers in general for that matter.  I think an argument should be strong enough to say with a straight face and I can just see you breaking a smile honestly trying to defend Android programmers as the basis here.

Quote
Your argument, perpetually, is that there's more money (whether your a musician or a programmer for example) if you give your work away.

Wow crazy.  No and perpetually no.  There are plenty of ways for this to be a reality, true enough.  There's also the completely useless, non-business plans like hoping some virtual tip jar will bring you great riches.  The tip jar logic of "disproving" the macroeconomic reality we now exist in is just stale old thinking, and grasping at straws.  You're right, most people will not contribute to your tip jar.  If you think I believe otherwise then that's probably why you don't understand what I'm saying.  A tip jar is next to useless.  Read Free and try to understand.

Quote
You may not like it at all (duh) but it is the unfortunate requirement that people pay for work

 ROFLMAO ROFLMAO ROFLMAO

Everything but the duh is false. 

  • I'm a huge supporter of paying for work
  • The act of paying for work is hardly "unfortunate"
  • Paying directly for some work, especially the digital kind, is decreasingly a "requirement"

And one of my favorites:

Quote
I recognize that you have an anarchic and egalitarian view of what would be utopia, but it's neither going to happen nor would it be good.

In many ways I'm already living in it, my utopia, so I'm not sure what changes you believe I would make nor their chances of success nor the desirability of their qualities.  That's another awesome one.  But I'm fiercely Utopianistic when it comes to tending the garden; calling weeds by name, flowers by name, and the desirable fertilizer known as profit that helps things grow.  No, it's not the banana.  It's the poop-based substance that helped the process along.  Just because it's part of the process doesn't mean we should all eat it, or worship it  Smooch

Here's a decent and short article that might help explain the "free" aspects of this.  But you did suggest that your post was not a good sign for open source software, and I have yet to see anything that you're saying suggest that this was an honest observation and not simply an assertion that you have basically always maintained, would have maintained anyway, and will continue to maintain regardless of "new" information provided  Undecided 

But good bait!  I know this must get tiring for some.  But this is the Internet and the topic is extremely important.
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2010, 02:31:49 PM »

Quote
the majority of the world has no understanding of value

(...forgot - I wanted to comment on this as well...)

Interesting and rather dark worldview.  And quite a bold, utterly unprovable assertion.  I can prove it's completely false though, with a simple philosophical truth: you have absolutely no idea what value means to others.  Therefore, asserting that the majority of the world has no understanding of value is either completely true, since they can't possibly know what your personal definition is, or completely false since you have no clue what value means to them.

In general I think you tend to believe that money actually IS value, and that value is almost entirely composed of money - directly.  But that's only an observation and completely suspect since I don't really know.  As for the rest of the world?   Undecided  I do know one thing though, making gigantic assumptions and over-generalizations about what really motivates everyone, and stereotypes in general, is that those patterns of thinking are misguided at best and often have harmful results.

Value is an entirely subjective, completely unique and ultimately imprecise definition to impose on anyone other than yourself.  Vintage black and white thinking no? ROFLMAO
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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2010, 03:05:07 PM »

ITTO your perception of the world is so very black and white.
ROFLMAO both of you have a very black and white view of the world Smiley.

Both your views in a nutshell.
Perks view of world - the artist is going to get fuked over. The world is going to collapse. Our only hope is apple who will magically save us and help the poor under trodden artist.

ITTO view of world - some pot induced fantasy which is a left over from the 60s. We all will magically some up lots of pot and then love each other.

Obviously both of you missed the point about the movie Platoon.
Chris Taylor is obviously Oliver Stone. Initially he starts out as some naive bone head who thinks that magically he will save vietnam.

Inside the movie there are basically 2 characters (for artistic purposes olive stone has simplified things).
With Sgt Barnes he does not confuse reality with ideology (a key problem americans have).

And Sgt Barnes is concerned about the platoon's survival, whether from self interest, if the platoon dies he dies, or whether from a sense of duty. It does not matter. This is evident from this quote.

You talking about killing? Hmm? Y'all experts? Y'all know about killing? I'd like to hear about it, potheads.
Are you smoking this shit so's to escape from reality? Me, I don't need this shit. I am reality. There's the way it ought to be, and there's the way it is. Elias was full of shit. Elias was a crusader. Now, I got no fight... with any man who does what he's told. But when he don't, the machine breaks down. And when the machine breaks down, we break down. And I ain't gonna allow that... in any of you. Not one.


As many things in life, you do not realize the importance of things till many years have passed.
As the movie ends .....

I think now, looking back, we did not fight the enemy; we fought ourselves. The enemy was in us. The war is over for me now, but it will always be there, the rest of my days. As I'm sure Elias will be, fighting with Barnes for what Rhah called "possession of my soul." There are times since, I've felt like a child, born of those two fathers. But be that as it may, those of us who did make it have an obligation to build again. To teach to others what we know, and to try with what's left of our lives to find a goodness and a meaning to this life.

Ultimately things are not divided in black and white.
With Apple in the long term it is a losing battle just like how the americans lost in vietnam. The tide can be held for a short time but in the long term the battle will be lost if that is the method used to win the fight.

And stone saids he is born of 2 fathers. In his heart he wants Elias to be right and when he was younger he supported Elias. But now looking back years later he sees that Barnes was right. And yet to some degree they both where right. For it is like yin and the yang, both are the same and yet they are different.

Most people can not face that reality, so they smoke the shit 
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2010, 04:04:10 PM »

   ain't what it used to be for me Smiley 

@black and white thinking: everything is either good or evil, there is no middle ground.  So the more one tends to assert that everything in their ongoing experience is either awesome or terrible, the more black and white their thinking is.  This is not the same as having various passions in life and things that you support along with some other things that you dislike, perhaps even abhor.  But I've notice that those who seem to have the fewest colors in their "rainbow" tend to be first to accuse others of having the same deficit  Idea...

Black and white thinking is a defense mechanism for those who are unable or unwilling to evaluate things honestly, at least on some level.  It's also a pretty clear psychological indicator that an individual has their own false dilemmas they deal with when the person accuses others of black and white thinking, especially when this happens more than infrequently  Nerd

More than anything, it's a vanilla attempt to discredit opinions that you personally dislike by downgrading the quality of the critical thinking that produced them.  I do this when I call someone a fanboi, which is why I try to avoid doing this, since it's just a cheap mechanism to discredit their views without actually taking them on directly, man to man as it were.  Others might try to lessen the validity of views held by others... simply because they live in America  Smooch
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I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code.
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