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Author Topic: Busting the "cloud in a box" myth  (Read 6030 times)
isthisthingon
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« on: September 01, 2010, 09:53:27 PM »

http://www.hpcinthecloud.com/features/Busting-the-Cloud-in-a-Box-Myth-101801253.html

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The much-hyped “ease of entry” into the private cloud sphere via a readymade “solution” may or may not be a reality, depending on the needs of the organization but it is simply not true that a private cloud can be production-ready in minutes, no matter what kind of box vendors suggest they have ready

 Ditto
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perkiset
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« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2010, 11:15:10 PM »

NO LIE.

Having now fought the war aggressively and with great success (albeit not without costing millions of dollars and thousands of lives) I am here to tell you that producing your own cloud, even if you DID manage to get it rolling with minimal effort would probably not be optimized and certainly not a cost-effective solution without burning a lot of gray matter on the subject.

Ask Nuts. Poor bastard is besieged by curious undocumented tech anomalies and assholes for whom the gap between what they know and what they THINK they know is wider than most nerd's asses. Horrible.

And yet, absolutely wonderful, all at the same time. Nice catch ITTO.
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nop_90
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2010, 03:35:36 AM »

Unless you are some large company, or doing some sort of hosting, why would you want a "private cloud" ?
A cloud is to distribute computing, and to virtualize. So if you had 20 websites, and you put them on a cloud, theoretically you would save money.

But I thought the origional purpose behind a cloud was something like google's cloud.
Basically a way for a small person to get up and running, being able to handle tons of traffic, while not worrying about the nitty gritty.
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nutballs
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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2010, 09:26:05 AM »

I am balder and grayer and fatter now thanks to perk, icarus, and their crazy fucking idea of how to make millions.

Nop, part of the problem is that cloud has been generalized into meaning all sorts of shit. its very confusing.
A private cloud is just something that you control and use on your equipement. Oh but wait, that not true anymore... now VMware has "Virtual Private Cloud" that you can run your private cloud on someone elses cloud without them knowing what you are running or having any access to it...
then you have grids, clusters, bears, lions, tigers, oh my.

So, if you have a bunch of servers that are being underutilized and you convert them to virtualization hosts, you can increase your capacity, without new equipment. technically thats a cloud. and its private because you are the only one using it. So for a small shop, it can reduce the upgrades game a bit.

damn marketing people.


what a cloud was supposed to be, is exactly what you said.
A set of "generic" compute resources that can run a wide variety of apps/os/things and can be utilized by many at the same time.
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2010, 10:33:06 AM »


Ask Nuts. Poor bastard is besieged by curious undocumented tech anomalies and assholes for whom the gap between what they know and what they THINK they know is wider than most nerd's asses. Horrible.


JTFC  hahahahahah .... well said   ROFLMAO Applause ROFLMAO Applause ROFLMAO
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2010, 10:58:31 AM »

A private cloud actually has nothing to do with hosting it on hardware that you own and control.  I realize this is confusing as hell, but a private cloud is considered just as "private" as the "private" fiber your business shares with others in your neighborhood.  Having access to a private cloud running at Rackspace where the hardware is managed by yet another party with a contract between you and them stating that your data is completely yours (and that of your clients, keeping it separate and everything), is every bit as "private" as owning your very own datacenter or renting space in a datacenter yet owning the hardware.  It's perfectly "private" to own nothing yet be contractually responsible for what you rent out to others, just like ISPs.

nop: private/public/hybrid clouds are all important to understand and probably leverage for business people of all kinds.  It's not simply about virtualization.  It's about re-envisioning how you provision every physical and every virtual IT asset you've got access to for transformative effects to your bottom line, throughput potential, capacity, combination of far greater offerings than each provides on it's own, etc., etc.....
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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2010, 11:43:25 AM »

Well, tiny argument there - a private cloud may well be private hardware. I've seen a lot of these at our DC. Not that you are incorrect that it may be an outsourced cloud, but there're strong arguments for creating your own IF THE MISSION REQUIRES IT.

Nop - clouds make sense in a big way when it comes to eventual cost effectiveness and user control, even at a smaller company level. In one of our prototypes, we have a company with approximately 45 employees running on two DL360s and a SAN box. And we're PEGGING the needle at only 30% during hours of extreme usage, average about 5% most of the time. Ergo, if you had the right team, a local, private cloud will cost less, be more efficient, more stable, more robust, faster processing and even allow for external connection (like by iPad from home) - huge benefits from the right configuration.

But fuck me, it's no walk in the park. Even my websites are now all migrating over to the cloud because of more backups, and with live movement of instances, if a machine/backplane dies, the webserver instance simply moves to another processor in the cloud. So my real uptime is vastly improved and my client calls when something goes down is vastly improved. Unfortunately, the free wares like ESXi do not have this sort of feature. The hint at it, but they are really the dime bag that gets you hooked and then you pay stupid amounts of money to get the whole ball of wax.

Or, a membership at the piratebay... Wink
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2010, 01:12:04 PM »

>Well, tiny argument there - a private cloud may well be private hardware.

No argument at all.  It may be completely private hardware, public, your datacenter, another's, etc. etc.  You get your power from "PG&E" and they're responsible for it, period.  Where they get it is an entirely different story.  They are contractually bound to you and you them - regardless of the ownership details of the original source of the power and path between you and them.

So if you leverage EC2 in cases of high computing requirements, this can still be completely within your "private" cloud.
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perkiset
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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2010, 03:54:37 PM »

Totally.

Back to Nuts' point, one of the problems in this arena is that "cloud" has simply come to represent so much. (to some, at least) the 'net is a cloud. Does Google use a cloud? Where is the cloud? Do you have a cloud? I am actually in a *little* bit of fear that overuse will make it a cliche, when in fact it is the future of tech.
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nop_90
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2010, 05:09:15 PM »

Google App Engine, IMHO is an example of a good cloud.
You look at the App Engine page http://code.google.com/appengine/
It sums up very nicely what their cloud can do, and indirectly can not do.
It is like a hosting service, but instead of sharing a piece of a server.
Your application can run across multiple servers.
The database used is very similar to ZODB, so with a little bit of modification, I could take my data from GAE and stick it on ZODB.
From a consumer perspective, I could start a digg type site. And it would scale up no problems.
Also it is fairly clear cut what it can run. Python 2.5 or JVM.
So if you have these 2 types of apps with minor modification you can get them running on their cloud.

It's about re-envisioning how you provision every physical and every virtual IT asset you've got access to for transformative effects to your bottom line, throughput potential, capacity, combination of far greater offerings than each provides on it's own, etc., etc.....
Interesting article here.
http://nickelcode.com/2008/12/15/erlang-and-cloud-computing-a-fine-pair-indeed/
With erlang I can setup a cloud as fast as I can install the VM on each machine.
Biggie is erlang is a "functional programming" language.
In functional programming theoretically the order of the statements do not matter. This is very important when it comes to multitasking.
Ericsson has had a cloud using erlang for the last 25+ years.
Bottom line they figured out that to make this happen and work properly, they needed a new language and a new way of thinking.
Why are other clouds so complex. People are trying to make "procedural language" work on them.

Even my websites are now all migrating over to the cloud because of more backups, and with live movement of instances, if a machine/backplane dies, the webserver instance simply moves to another processor in the cloud. So my real uptime is vastly improved and my client calls when something goes down is vastly improved. Unfortunately, the free wares like ESXi do not have this sort of feature. The hint at it, but they are really the dime bag that gets you hooked and then you pay stupid amounts of money to get the whole ball of wax.
An example of another good cloud. Your clients have specialized programs that do not run on GAE.
Very clear cut very simple.


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perkiset
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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2010, 05:27:07 PM »

Your post, Nop, outlines perfectly one of the problems with the word "cloud." Although many will argue the correctness of each of these being called a cloud, I've heard each example expressed as a cloud.

A cloud can be an abstract number of processing boxes all working on a single problem, like distributed computation.
A cloud can be an abstract number of processing boxes all working on a unique part of a larger whole, like the machines in a movie rendering house.
A cloud can be an abstract number of processing boxes all able load any number of processes of any shape and flavor that have no relationship in any way. This is most like what I assume a cloud to be - processors that can be any personality, process, OS (and in any quantity) simultaneously.
A cloud can be an abstract number of destination services where the calling service has no knowledge of the workings/tech/structure of the underlying mechanism.
The Internet has been called The Cloud

Nuts, Icarus' and my cloud is actually a combination of many different types of processing structures, HA mechanisms and secret sauce to optimize operations for radiation and medical oncology practices. It's got "traditional" cloud structures, non-traditional cloud structures and a sprinkle of cloud voodoo. So some would say that "it" is not a cloud at all.

Well it is to me, dammit. Wink
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 06:03:09 PM by perkiset » Logged

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isthisthingon
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2010, 05:53:34 PM »

I prefer to think of the cloud as utility computing when things get vague, even if it's my own utility I'm providing to myself 
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2010, 08:50:07 PM »

i prefer to think of my cloud more like a puddle.
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perkiset
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2010, 09:01:20 PM »

No no no, that's just what happens to you when shit goes sideways and you've no backup.

Have they re-approved your entrance into the DC since the last, um, "event?"
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2010, 10:43:26 PM »

i prefer to think of my cloud more like a puddle.

May your cloud/puddle be private  Grin
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