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Author Topic: This is the WORST part of a managed App Store database.  (Read 9575 times)
perkiset
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« on: March 22, 2011, 05:32:05 PM »

Consider this post: http://www.cultofmac.com/senators-call-on-apple-to-pull-dui-checkpoint-apps/87641

Senators are asking Apple to pull apps from the store that crowd source the location(s) of speed traps. So my first reaction: Who made them boss? And second, FREE SPEECH YOU MONKEYS.

But wait. I am conflicted about the Gay Cure app on the app store. Apple kills fart apps but allows an app that claims it can help "Cure gay people?"

And so the problem: I *really* enjoy the fact that the AppStore is culled and maintained. It offers a bit of protection against malware and blatant abuses. It tends to keep strong, worth-something apps at the forefront. But the problem inherent is that people now feel they have a right to lobby the caretakers. And we must either A) be comfortable not always getting our way from the caretakers or B) submit to the wide open spaces of the Android store.

Undecided

People a lot smarter than me will have to figure that one out.
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 06:18:55 PM »

As long as there are those who want to be coddled, there will be those who profit from it.  Apple will happily trade your choice for their wallet, much like they trade your education for same.  Unfortunately, it's not until they make a "bad" choice that some "wake up" to disagree with the choice making in the first place.  Barf!

Don't wait until they choose poorly for you personally.  Just the fact that they are choosing for everyone what content shall be viewable should be enough to make you feel uneasy - IF you have any empathy for those who are left with choices that they dislike 

No, it's not simply "go shop somewhere else."  Even some of those with the means are enormously invested in Apple, and having the rules change so terribly is a damn crime for them.  They just got robbed by Apple.  Get it?  Now they get to spend hundreds/thousands more on another product, hoping the new one will have a less slum-lord like dictatorship.  That's not OK long before it happens, back when everyone was just surrendering to hope.  There is no hope Wink

Yes I'm a consumer advocate.  And when anti-consumer advocates (AKA market fundamentalists) inadvertently or consciously promote practices that will now or may in the future harm consumers, it's just not ok  Police

Free speech?  It's a business, not a person  Nerd
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perkiset
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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 07:03:33 PM »

As long as there are those who want to be coddled, there will be those who profit from it.  Apple will happily trade your choice for their wallet, much like they trade your education for same.  Unfortunately, it's not until they make a "bad" choice that some "wake up" to disagree with the choice making in the first place.  Barf!
It'd be so much more fun discussing this stuff if the immediate implication were not that if I choose to outsource management of the apps thrown at me I am coddled, have no choice or have/will trade my education for it. Don't imagine for a skinny minute that your cynicism makes you more educated or intelligent. It simply makes you more cynical.

Don't wait until they choose poorly for you personally.  Just the fact that they are choosing for everyone what content shall be viewable should be enough to make you feel uneasy - IF you have any empathy for those who are left with choices that they dislike 
Wow. And now if I continue to use Apple I have no empathy for those so maligned by an app.

No, it's not simply "go shop somewhere else."  Even some of those with the means are enormously invested in Apple, and having the rules change so terribly is a damn crime for them.  They just got robbed by Apple.  Get it?  Now they get to spend hundreds/thousands more on another product, hoping the new one will have a less slum-lord like dictatorship.  That's not OK long before it happens, back when everyone was just surrendering to hope.  There is no hope Wink
... damn crime ... slum lord ... dictatorship ... FFS dude. I know you hate Apple, but you're really in a mood today.

Yes I'm a consumer advocate.  And when anti-consumer advocates (AKA market fundamentalists) inadvertently or consciously promote practices that will now or may in the future harm consumers, it's just not ok  Police
ROFLMAO ROFLMAO ROFLMAO Nope, you'd be an anarchist vis-a-vis consumerism and capitalism. You're not pro-consumer, you're anti-control. There's a big difference, and one that would do you well to understand.

My completely unsurprising response is rather simple. Many people that are surprisingly educated, enjoy choice and are not coddled in any way like the App Store for a variety of reasons that you refuse to grok. And believe it or not, many of them are even empathetic to others.

The real question is more philosophical and hearkens back to the question of benevolent dictatorship. Can it be done? Yeah yeah, absolute power corrupts blah blah that's not the issue. The point here is that if I have to spend a shitload of time evaluating apps before I purchase them for safety, or become smart enough to know before I buy, then the technology is simply not available to me. There is not enough time in the day for me to be brilliant about every app, food, medicine, gasoline, operating system etc ad nauseum that I'd need to be smart about to live in the world you fancy.

You say that you're a consumer advocate. Bullshit. Consumer Reports is a consumer advocate. They at times recommend and sometimes do not recommend Apple products. Why? Because they do their best to be unbiased. They evaluate products based on respective merits and evaluate them according to how they may do for consumers. They do not start from a position that Apple is blanketly evil as you do.

Which view, by the way, hinders you from seeing quite a lot that, as a tech person, would be of real value for you to see.
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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 08:37:42 PM »

99% of people are fuking retards.
And they are mentally lazy.
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perkiset
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 10:34:08 PM »

You hang out with the wrong people.
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2011, 09:06:47 AM »

So this morning, the news is that Apple has pulled the Gay Cure app, after a petition signed by 146K people arrived at Apple.

Good or bad?
Democratic or dictatorial?
An example of Apple's control or the people's? Or a healthy combination?
Or is it just Apple buckling under a worry about sales or PR?

The philosophy part of this is pretty hard to sift. At least for me.
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2011, 09:51:56 AM »

I'm perfectly happy that Apple pulled the "gay cure" app, for a multitude of reasons.  I actually wouldn't mind if they went further, and added some kind of "actual value" standard to letting apps in the store.  If an app doesn't actually add some value -- entertainment, productivity, etc., or if it doesn't do what it claims to do -- keep it out of the store and cull the ridiculous number of completely worthless apps.  I'm being a bit facetious, as one man's value is another's trash, I suppose, but there are still so many bad, worthless, stupid and trashy apps that one must wade through.

I'm happy to have a big brother in this instance, so long as they are reasonable in the decisions they make – which thus far, they have been.

The "gay cure" app was offensive.  Would they have allowed an app purporting to instruct in how to rid yourself of your evil black (or insert color here) skin, or one teaching how to "de-Jew" yourself?  Of course not, and the gay cure app was no different.  Hate speech doesn't need to get a pass.  Apple has every right to decide who gets to play in its sandbox, and no obligation to allow anything that they, or (in their perception) their customers would find offensive.  The first amendment doesn't apply here.
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2011, 10:14:12 AM »

one man's value is another's trash, I suppose

 Idea...

Example: value for me is a good book on Android programming.  According to Apple, that's not a very valuable endeavor.
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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2011, 10:37:52 AM »

So this morning, the news is that Apple has pulled the Gay Cure app, after a petition signed by 146K people arrived at Apple.

Good or bad?
Democratic or dictatorial?
An example of Apple's control or the people's? Or a healthy combination?
Or is it just Apple buckling under a worry about sales or PR?

The philosophy part of this is pretty hard to sift. At least for me.

That's a lot of people, and based on the psychographics of Apple owners (especially up here in San Francisco), they'd be shooting themselves in the foot by taking a hard line against its removal 

On the other hand, if there was no petition or perhaps one with only a few hundred/thousand people, and Apple didn't have practically the entire LGBT population in its pocket, would it then be OK if Apple ignored it?  The feds don't care about anti-gay propaganda yet they want the revenue secured that is almost guaranteed when sobriety checkpoints net thousands of dollars per customer criminal driving at over .08% BAC in their blood - regardless of their testable capacity to drive safer than most other sober-bozos on the road.

As cliché as it sounds, once you go down the road of coddling, restricting and spoon feeding the masses, it's a foregone conclusion that issues like these will recur again and again   D'oh!

This is a very different thing from someone hosting a PaaS cloud and dictating that only approved marketing apps are allowed to run on it.  Why?  Because you can take your physical mobile device and point it elsewhere.  But when your physical mobile device is hamstrung by the same types of controls appropriate only for a businesses own website, then the device is in jail - along with its owner.  And as long as enough people like it there, the situation won't change a bit since the warden keeps getting richer
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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2011, 10:57:28 AM »

@Dv8r - I agree about hate speech and Apple not having to deal with it ... the challenge is the definition of hate speech. From one perspective (CERTAINLY NOT MINE) that app is about loving speech - they honestly believe that they are doing something good for people (wow, I have a profoundly difficult time even typing those words much less saying them with a straight face, but there you go) - saving them from the unholy fires of damnation.

The challenge for me is precisely what you outline - how to do you allow for a smidge of big brother without the risk of Big Brother. To ITTO's point, well the best way is *no* big brother because then I am responsible. Which I get and like, fundamentally. But the problem is, as I noted above, that if I have to be smart enough to cull the App Store myself, then the technology is simply not available to me. How then do we allow for what I (the macro I) define as valid caretaking?

My confliction is rooted in the fact that I prefer Apple's caretaking. Especially because if I so choose I can jailbreak and get what I want, or more specifically, simply purchase an Android device and I can do whatever I want. In the most fundamental way, my purchase of Apple signals my acquiescence to the caretaking process. And in looking back at my rant, I guess that is the answer: by making the choice into the Apple store I am OK with whatever they say is OK. And I am totally fine with that level of control because I can opt out and into another device completely at will, making the Apple offering a non-monopoly. Although I am frustrated at times by what they may offer or not offer, my choice of them as a device vendor has the downside of not always getting it the way I want it. 
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2011, 11:03:11 AM »

Example: value for me is a good book on Android programming.  According to Apple, that's not a very valuable endeavor.

Well I'd get that, except that there aren't any digital forms of Android books really available anywhere. The top 10 at Amazon are paper only, so I don't think this is a valid thing. Additionally, I'd bet that when Apple signs a deal with a publisher they get to take whatever books are in that publisher's catalogue - I'd REALLY doubt that Apple culls the book offering at the micro level of book by book. A quick look show that about 30 version of the Kama Sutra are currently available from different publishers, and in that list alone books like Sex and the Perfect Lover, Sextasy, Exotica and such ... so I don't think they are limiting choice. With Random House coming online they should have a much larger offering. I don't think it's been Apple's choice of content nearly so much as financial partnership arrangement.

And actually LOL I just searched the book store and the top 10 and then some (a whole bunch actually) ARE available at the Apple bookstore but not available for the Kindle  ROFLMAO ROFLMAO ROFLMAO In fact there are more books here than I even saw at Amazon.
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2011, 11:20:39 AM »

Well I'd get that, except that there aren't any digital forms of Android books really available anywhere.

Look here   Shocked.  These are real Android programming books, online and available for download and offline use.  How about some of these titles?? 

The world outside of prison iTunes is a stimulating place   Grin
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2011, 11:26:10 AM »

That's a lot of people, and based on the psychographics of Apple owners (especially up here in San Francisco), they'd be shooting themselves in the foot by taking a hard line against its removal 
Agree. And the PR for going against it is a lot worse than the PR for including it IMO.

On the other hand, if there was no petition or perhaps one with only a few hundred/thousand people, and Apple didn't have practically the entire LGBT population in its pocket, would it then be OK if Apple ignored it?  The feds don't care about anti-gay propaganda yet they want the revenue secured that is almost guaranteed when sobriety checkpoints net thousands of dollars per customer criminal driving at over .08% BAC in their blood - regardless of their testable capacity to drive safer than most other sober-bozos on the road.
THE MOST interesting question, and one that strikes at the heart of my original question. Would they? I dunno, but philosophically that's where I was trying to get discussion going. How does one have SOME big brother? It's like political correctness - where does it end? Who defines political correctness? Is it like the Supreme Court judge Potter (1964) definition of pornography... "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it?" In some ways we ask the Supreme Court to do exactly what we are debating about Apple.

As cliché as it sounds, once you go down the road of coddling, restricting and spoon feeding the masses, it's a foregone conclusion that issues like these will recur again and again 
Yes, absolutely. Which is why it should be debated over and over again as well. I'm suddenly struck by the similarity to some of the more difficult and undefined passages in the Constitution and how it continually must be re-debated.

This is a very different thing from someone hosting a PaaS cloud and dictating that only approved marketing apps are allowed to run on it.  Why?  Because you can take your physical mobile device and point it elsewhere.  But when your physical mobile device is hamstrung by the same types of controls appropriate only for a businesses own website, then the device is in jail - along with its owner.  And as long as enough people like it there, the situation won't change a bit since the warden keeps getting richer
To me this argument only works if we assume that the $199 for the mobile device is an immovable barrier. Essentially you're saying that the expense of the device is what creates my jail. Perhaps that's where the fundamental difference in our opinion lay - I don't see that as any kind of barrier at all, however I do see how it could be for others. So in the notion of executing personal choice, it is important for one to do what I described above - either signal that you are willing to allow for caretaking above your app store or not, but purchasing either Apple or (insert Android device here).
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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2011, 11:36:05 AM »

How about some of these titles?? 
I was specifically (and problematically, obviously) only referencing Amazon digital books. Since you can purchase any physical book from any source using a browser I'm not even going there. I was specifically talking about digital books, which is all Apple sells directly in its book store. The digital versions of about 30 books ARE available at Apple, they are not available at Amazon. Since apple does not sell any physical books through its app store that point is moot.

The reason I use Amazon for my example is because they will shortly be THE goto place for Android stuff, given the opening of their app store. They are, also, arguably the largest online bookseller so I'd assume that if ANYONE would have something that Apple did not, they would. An interesting example is Android Programming for Dummies. Amazon sells it physical but there is no Kindle book, Apple sells it digitally. I'm not sure why this is, unless Amazon only digitizes books after a certain number of requests for it in Kindle format happen.


The world outside of prison iTunes is a stimulating place   Grin
Um, did you read my entire post?
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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2011, 12:54:00 PM »

@read your entire post

Yes I did.  And jailbraking your device and/or simply buying another one is a luxury some have.  Others do not.  And it's not $199.  It's $199 (16GB) & $299 (32GB) with 2-year contract (AT&T/Verizon)  .  Want to buy the device factory unlocked?  Try this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150578099193

Yet still the point remains.  For some, even $840.00 is chicken feed and still feels nothing like "prison," since if their service/experience changes so drastically they can simply eat their sunk costs and go Droid.  Yet this is where the empathy point comes back into focus.  How can anyone profess the merits of something as being wholly not vendor lock-in when clearly for others this is precisely the situation?  That sounds a tad classicist to me  Undecided  Or at least it sounds like not taking in the full picture of the pros/cons of others and their tech purchases.

@Being a bullshit consumer advocate, I'd suggest that you try educating all those who you would encourage to purchase Apple about how for you there is no financial concern about the choice if a Droid parachute is required later - since the cash just isn't that much of a personal impact.  However, for them it may be a different story.  And that's where I come in with my grandiose adjectives sounding like such a pot-smoking hippie  ROFLMAO

Think about it.  I've known plenty of rich people who could buy the entire inventory of an Apple store who would be absolutely furious to have, in their eyes, wasted say $500 on a locked-in device that then does a game-changing switch on them.  I'm no rich person's advocate, per se, but I am in fact a consumer advocate.  I recommend Apple to many who are tech noobs, have the cash, don't mind the lock-in and just want everything to work with as little technical knowledge required to use it as possible.  I'd put some of my family in this category, along with many business folks I've worked with who primarily want a clean sync to their Mac at home.

Amazon Kindle?  I'd never own one.  Yet would I recommend this to, say, my mom?  Absolutely. 

To turn the tables, if I were to, say, recommend a Droid to my mom - then I would be guilty of preferential treatment to a technology at the expense of the consumer.  Ditto over recommending of Apple products, imo.
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