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[isthisthingon]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/190384/apple_underage_workers_may_have_built_your_iphone.html?tk=nl_dnx_h_crawl

I can't wait.  The defending logic and forthcoming arguments in support of Apple's actions revealed in this disclosure will be deliciously deranged   "Oh come on, when in Rome blah blah blah.  When in China embrace the pre-teen savings."  Or let's see, how about "Well, at least Apple had the courage to admit it and now endeavors to improve where they fell short of human decency and missed the mark on compassion."  Or perhaps just "Dude, mistakes were made.  Move on.  Apple working kids to the bone for a few pennies a day is so earlier this morning."

I'm not holding my breath.  But damn I'd be thrilled and surprised if Apple fanbois said at least something like "Wow.  That sort of sucks.  They didn't even pass along their iSweatShop savings to me, their fan."

[kurdt]

I don't get it. Are you saying that it's wrong that Apple released this publicly or what exactly are fanboys suppose to defend? Or are you implying that Apple is somehow responsible for their suppliers "hiring policies"? This happens more than you can imagine and it's always good that companies themselves try to fight it instead only reacting after some activist group releases some unwanted material.

[perkiset]

I was waiting for this one. Not only is the report exactly the opposite of what's actually happening there, it avoids the subject that Apple is currently one of the only high-tech suppliers in the world that self audits for these sorts of abuses. The Telegraph article attempts to tar Apple in a way that is skanky and newsrag material, but is a nasty spin, not a truth.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/02/27/apple_taken_to_task_for_reporting_partners_child_labor_violations.html

Apple's own, published document on supplier responsibility: http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/SR_2010_Progress_Report.pdf

Here's the problem: Apple identified the issue at a supplier, was stand up about admitting that this was going on outside of their knowledge and released the company from all contracts. The article twists it to posture Apple as some kind of bad guy in the situation, rather than self policing in a way that is really not seen around the world.

The original UK article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/7330986/Apple-admits-using-child-labour.html

"It was released that... It was discovered that..." FFS. The Telegraph article itself says:

In its report, Apple revealed the sweatshop conditions inside the factories it uses. Apple admitted that at least 55 of the 102 factories that produce its goods were ignoring Apple's rule that staff cannot work more than 60 hours a week.

The technology company's own guidelines are already in breach of China's widely-ignored labour law, which sets out a maximum 49-hour week for workers.
Apple also said that one of its factories had repeatedly falsified its records in order to conceal the fact that it was using child labour and working its staff endlessly.
"When we investigated, we uncovered records and conducted worker interviews that revealed excessive working hours and seven days of continuous work," Apple said, adding that it had terminated all contracts with the factory.

"If Apple fanbois said that kind of sucked?" Enjoy your Android based phone. No such reviews, or audits or anything like has been done by those companies autonomously as Apple has. You wonder why I tag you repeatedly for simply being a hater? You just seem to look for this stuff man.

[Phaëton]

It said that the workers were all now of age and were hired when they were 15 and a few
months shy of 16 the legal age. And that they are all now of age. And mind you, they were
hired. Its not like they were being forced to sew soccer balls in pakistan against their will at
the age of five or anything...

[Phaëton]

Since when is a sixty hour work week bad for a 15 year old?  Builds character.

My grandfather worked longer than that since he could stand strong on a farm
until the day he managed to work his way out of there... him and his 7 sisters..

[nop_90]

I call BS on all of you.

You jumped my post but

Since when is a sixty hour work week bad for a 15 year old?  Builds character.

My grandfather worked longer than that since he could stand strong on a farm
until the day he managed to work his way out of there... him and his 7 sisters..

When i was 14-15 I had a paper route. My route was a quite large route. I worked probably 20-30 hours a week on the route. Hardest part of the route was not delievering the papers, but collecting the $$$ owed for the papers . I learned about business and all sorts of shit .
Shortly after I turned 17 I signed up with the army. You learn about reality pretty quick .
No wonder today USA and Canada for the most part is such a wimpy nation full of whinners, that thinks the world owes them something.

Anyway  ....
A great deal of china is still rural. According to my understanding the situtation in the rural parts of china is similar to the rural parts of PH.

In the rural parts of PH it is estimated that 30% of people do not have proper birth documentation. The reasons why they do not have proper documentation range for the following reasons.
1) Majority of births take place at home in the care of a mid-wife, only if there is a complication with the birth is the woman moved to the hospital.
2) After the birth, the child is supposed to be registered at a gov't office, if it is during monsoon season, people do not like to travel so the registration can be delayed by months or in some cases forever .
3) Often gov't records are destroyed by accident (due to flood etc), or in some cases intentionally. The provincial offices are supposed to turn over copies of records to manila but sometimes this does not happen for various reasons.

So basically apple's so called audit is a PR scam. The documents which prove they only hire 16+ year old workers are useful for wiping your ass with.

Also
A lot of the electronics factories in HK,taiwan and even mainland china are manned by filipino OFW. As harsh as the conditions in the factories might be, as in they work 60+ hours a week etc, they provide relatively high wages, and no one is forced to work in these factories. People want to work in these factories. They also provide a stepping stone for OFW to work in better factories in singapore etc.

As for child labor in general.
Again it depends what you define as a "child". Because of modernization in PH this is lessening but it is not uncommon for women who are 15-16 to marry. A good friend of mine, who is now 50+ was married at 16. She came from a very poor family. Today she is a very successful buisness woman, owns quite a few houses, cars etc.

Bottom line is these countries are extremely poor in resources and infrastructure. Generally speaking it is the role of the oldest child to work as soon as s/he can to support the other children in their schooling etc. Hence it is very common to see that the oldest child dropped out of school when he was 14 and the other siblings have completed university etc.

Children here always help on the farm, running the family business etc. Maybe in USA if they helped out and worked they would not be a bunch of spoiled whinney brats.

[isthisthingon]

So basically apple's so called audit is a PR scam. The documents which prove they only hire 16+ year old workers are useful for wiping your ass with.

 

I love the Cache!  I realize I probably must seem like some anti-child labor activist 

No actually what I was really interested to hear, and you guys are masters of persuasion, is the gap-bridging arguments that must exist between being so "good" and anything even close to scandalous.  Child labor is a perfect hot topic that simply can't exist happily in the same neighborhood as anything considered to be "good" such as Apple.  I'd be laughing just as hard if not harder if this was Google, though I'm sure I'll be called a liar for this.  It's totally true.  Why?  What fires me up so much?  Hypocrisy, period.

I would laugh my ass off listening to Google attempt to bridge the gap between an iSweatShop story and "do no evil," even if the iSweatShop story was 95% sizzle and 5% steak.  Publicly disclosed child labor is a reality for many countries that have the guts to admit it.  In fairness to the US and other societies steeped in righteous denial, there is a considerable competitive disadvantage when the child labor you tacitly condone is forced to remain underground while the child labor you compete against overseas is openly sanctioned by the government.  We simply step out of our "human rights" zone to do our dirty work and then honestly report that no laws were broken in the entire production process.  Oh and BTW, I'm no USA hater either.  I love my country and my friends and family within it.  But I love it like a child not like a parent.  I wouldn't hesitate to kick it out of the house for bad behavior and feel no lack of patriotism for calling a spade a spade.

But although ending child labor is not a personal mission of mine, I do have an issue with saving so much money on the backs of children overseas (see Walmart... but um, er..., if you run into me shopping there I apologize in advance for succumbing to extreme savings  ), while price gouging on the other side of the business coin.  Hypocrisy with elitist contempt for all but personal profit - including kids, and that's a hard one to reconcile aint it? 

Let's not forget the obvious here.  Of course Apple uses child labor!  I'm surprised Google hasn't been outed yet for the pre-teens helping produce their Nexus One.  I'm pretty sure their situation is no different than Apple's since if Google truly wasn't "doing any evil" in this department, they would be advertising the hell out of their "child labor free" Android offering of infinite compassion 

But again, thanks guys   We all could have been lawyers I believe...

[perkiset]

Well that's the funny part, isn't it? Apple outed themselves by executing the investigation and prosecuting the results. That's why the article is batcrap. IMO Apple should be lauded for having the guts to admit that they're using companies that are doing it wrong, and doing something about it. Would that all the tech we're using, even to type and/or read this very post, underwent the same self scrutiny. It doesn't make what's going on any better - in fact it's all nasty business and deserves to be expunged, but at least they're trying to get it rightER.

Do we honestly believe that the low cost providers... the Acers, the Dells etc are any less abusive? Let's let the Apple report be the tip of the iceberg, and the start of some real discussion on the issue. I'd wager that Apple, charging more than other people (by and large) have the luxury of being able to admit that they've got the wrong people building their machines. When we take apart the argument that Apple is so much more expensive than others, shouldn't we ask: Why? Why is it that other companies can charge less?

Perhaps the deal, in human terms, is not such a deal after all then?

[isthisthingon]

Apple outed themselves by executing the investigation and prosecuting the results.

 

>So basically apple's so called audit is a PR scam. The documents which prove they only hire 16+ year old workers are useful for wiping your ass with.

I couldn't put it any better than that.  The only reason Apple fans believe what Apple is telling them is because they want to.  Apple said it, I believe it, that settles it.

Let's let the Apple report be the tip of the iceberg, and the start of some real discussion on the issue.

 

>When we take apart the argument that Apple is so much more expensive than others, shouldn't we ask: Why? Why is it that other companies can charge less?

Considering their balance sheet, it's perhaps more reasonable to ask why they charge so much while leveraging the same cheap labor loopholes that allow others to pass the savings along to consumers with price competition.  Now add in the closed source, closed hardware, closed operating system business model Apple enforces legally on the public, literally destroying any Psystar if they don't follow their rules.  Then the whole child labor cost savings scandal becomes quite scandalous.  Apple predictably lies about how "great" their secret sauce is, as any public company should.  But the man behind the curtain reveals that in fact Apple is every way comparable to other hardware companies, using child labor to maximize profits.

It publicly reveals that Apple is the same as everyone else.

[nop_90]

I think I am getting more jaded as i get older.
My major bitch with apple is that they lock their product, force you to use shitty itunes to load songs onto your iphone and ipod.

As for the child labour i really could not give a shit .
If silly apple fanbois wanna think that apple is not using child labour, well let them live in thier delusion.
People enjoy being deluded.
I have a few great ideas to exploit human stupidity and make my self into a god like steve.
A million dollars does not get u much anymore not even in the 3rd world
How am i supposed to afford a helicopter ?

[perkiset]

FFS.

Nop: Fanbois are not saying Apple doesn't use child labor. Apple admitted they found factories they contract using child labor. They're going to take some PR heat because it's a public issue. Deserved heat and admirable that they're doing something about it. And BTW they don't force you to use anything at all. You use it because the costs (both material and implied) are outweighed by the benefits. Or not. WGAF? Like it? Use it. Don't? Don't.

ITTO: You've become the technical equivalent of Rush Limbaugh on this sort of subject. Even the Telegraph article allows that it was Apple that did the investigation and discovered the problem. I'd offer the simple opposite: If someone says something that feeds your dislike of them, that's where you stick. Try applying that ample cynicism to almost any other technical company and I'd bet that you find worse problems, better buried and un-talked about. "Apple predictably lies about how great their secret sauce is" Jeez man. You're completely stuck.

[isthisthingon]

>ITTO: You've become the technical equivalent of Rush Limbaugh on this sort of subject.

   And you're Sarah Palin! 

I don't think so man.  I'm just not so tightly identified with any company, especially any public company, to where when a scandal such as this hits the news I have to get defensive.  On the other hand, if someone said free software was brought to you largely through child labor, well I might not even trust my own opinions on the subject since I'm a die hard free software fanboi.  I am a fanboi of freedom, much like Rush Limbaugh 

Oh and no iTunes, no Acura approved and installed music for my car.  It's the only integrated system that works really well in my situation so yes, iTunes lock in is a reality.  Well then again I could trade in my vehicle and find a less iTunesy car so I could use my 80GB iPod with Rhythmbox 


"The truth is that men are tired of liberty." - Benito Mussolini

[perkiset]

  And you're Sarah Palin! 

I was wondering about these breasts and fangs.

I don't think so man.  I'm just not so tightly identified with any company,

indeed ... in fact, you're so anti-Apple now that this is about all that is certain. I look forward to your next rant about "freedom" having been typed in on a computer that was certainly built with the aid of child labor ... and none of the forthcoming investigations that Apple has now been identified as executing.

Oh and no iTunes, no Acura approved and installed music for my car.  It's the only integrated system that works really well in my situation so yes, iTunes lock in is a reality.  Well then again I could trade in my vehicle and find a less iTunesy car so I could use my 80GB iPod with Rhythmbox 

So, if you must have an Acura, and your sound must be integrated then you're "locked in" eh? So what is it when you buy a Ford and get Windows Mobile with Sync? You've completely lost connection to the reality of business here, in favor of spitting venom at Apple. (My Toyota has *no* integrated system. I'm being locked out, BTW.) Here's the real deal: if you want to be "free" then stop purchasing things. If you want to purchase products and are pissed off that Honda has made a deal with Apple then you're just whining. If you want ultimate choice, build a custom radio solution for your car that incorporates Ubuntu and whatever player you prefer. No? Ah... you want the dashboard to look OK. You don't want to do the work. You don't have the time. In other words, you've outsourced your music system construction to someone else (probably used child labor as well). All that your assertion points to is that it pisses you off that you can't have your car exactly the way you want it ... you have to purchase what they offer. Some lock in. 

"The truth is that men are tired of liberty." - Benito Mussolini

Oh, now that's just nasty. You really mean to infer something about me with this quote? And by reference endeavor to tie the purchase of Apple products to Fascism?
Dude, this thread is not long enough yet to approach Godwins. 

[isthisthingon]

>Oh, now that's just nasty. You really mean to infer something about me with this quote?

Is someone having a case of the muooondayz??..... 

Perks, as someone always used to say to me - relax.  Rush Limbaugh = fascism = Mussolini = Sarah Palin.  Neither you nor I are close in any way to Rush, Muss or Sarah or fascism.  And I wasn't setting myself on fire in protest of some unthinkable vendor lock-in for my car.  I was simply pointing out that as the term is defined,  you could definitely say that there is in fact lock-in.  But I myself bought into this lock-in consciously.  It was worth the trade-off.  I love my car.  But by pointing out issues like these does this necessarily mean I am an Apple hater and by the same logic must also be an Acura hater?  Is it Ubuntu mobile for me or keep quiet about aspects of my own vehicle that I find frustrating?  Or is there a tipping point where enough criticism of Acura magically makes me a "hater" of them too? 

A fanboi says "the reason I love X or Y is..."  A hater says "the reason I hate X or Y is..."  I just can't recall a time when I've ever said "the reason I hate Apple is..."  Can you?

Nuance is a lost art.

[perkiset]

Nuance is a lost art.

indeed, and well understood, reading the post that started this exchange