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May 23, 2012, 04:54:55 AM

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Author Topic: Apple, China and the war of ideas  (Read 744 times)
nop_90
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« on: May 15, 2010, 02:54:43 PM »

http://corte.si/posts/politics/apple-is-china.html
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2010, 07:01:45 PM »

 Applause  Damn that was a good read.  Thanks nop - great find. 

I was talking with one of the directors of the open source foundation the other day and asked him the question that puzzles me most about OSI supporters who deeply value freedom.   Why are they not, as I am, simply Free software supporters?  As one who has literally dedicated his life to software freedom as he has, Sir Simon Phipps, I asked him to help me understand this logic.  I explained that I'm an idealist and identify with Stallman more than the staunch pragmatist who vehemently denies association with, or identification with, any moral or idealistic cause - Linus Torvalds.

So why would the OSF permit the closing of source at all?  The GPL, especially #3, clearly forbids this outright.  But his answer was tremendously illuminating, regardless of whether it's ultimately correct or not.  He explained that the GPL3 is pessimistic rather than idealistic for the following reason.

One of the principle claimed benefits of open source is the quality, reliability and well groomed code it produces.  Therefore, the belief is that since closing it up will deny the likes of Apple the benefits of global code base support, financial and otherwise, that the majority of companies will choose to leave it open as a result.  Although I certainly can't personally claim this to be either true or false, it reveals precisely what this article claims to be the potential downfall of a great movement:  The belief that pragmatism and logic will carry the load when freedom and idealism aren't enough to continue the fight on their own.

I think there's a sea of fantastic arguments for the pragmatic adoption of open source.  Apple having even a distant relationship with open source proves this beyond a reasonable doubt.  But I'm personally more passionate about freedom first and cool technology, financial gain later - similar to one who openly supports civil liberties for compassion's sake, not because this act will produce more enthusiastic and financially empowered consumers 
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2010, 08:15:02 PM »

I am a pragmatist.
The article compares china to apple in a "bad" way, but it can also be taken in a "postive" light.
Most successful open source projects are similar to china, in that they are run by a "dictator", for example python with Guido van Rossum who is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_Dictator_For_Life

Today's most successful economies are run by BDFL. Sometimes you need a guy to call the shots, and when things go bad make hard decisions to set things back on track.

Most dictatorships have a bad rep mainly because of Hitler and western propaganda.
A dictatorship is a "feudal system", what most people do not realize is that a feudal system is democratic in a sense.
For the dictator to be in power he has to maintain loyalty of the majority of his subjects. If he fails to do that he ends up dead Smiley.

USA and the rest of the western world have spent billions of dollars trying to upset the regime. But probably the last 10-20 years of market economy have done more to bring freedom for the average chinese, and for that matter better living conditions. And indirectly the old communist guard is losing its stronghold.

Singapore is a classical example. The old dictator of singapore was interviewed a couple years ago on A&E, it was like a 5 part series.
He was very frank, he said that he wanted singapore to become an advanced country.
He had hard choices to make, what should be national language ? English.
Country did not have money to waste educating people in useless subjects, All schools must only teach science,english and math. That way the country will have educated work force.
Spitting on street is an unhygenic habit that must be stopped. Fines did not work, solution flogging.
Now that singapore's economy has surpassed USAs, they are now able to loosen up and allow more freedoms.

Same holds true with apple. They either loosen up, or they will die. Only problem is sometimes dictators get wierd voices in thier heads and bring themselves to distruction. I wonder what type of wierd voices steve jobs has in his head Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2010, 12:20:43 AM »

I agree with nop. One of the biggest fails in open-source movements is lack of leaders. One project can go to one direction and somebody has to have a vision where that direction is. When that vision doesn't exist, you get Linux. You got this and this and this and that's cool so I'll make it and then you got this and this and this. But where that ultimately leads is confusion because there's no vision. Everybody is always grinding their teeth about feature wars that rages on while companies should be focusing on making stable, well-defined products. Everybody knows this but yet open-source doesn't follow that. Open-source is like a software development in steroids. In the right hands open-source software evolves faster than any other thing in the world. But when software goes closed, then it evolves only by a fixed group of people. Sometimes those people make good decision, sometimes really bad. Just look at Windows. It's a prime example of what happens with closed software without a leader who has strong vision. However if that fixed group has a strong leader with vision that appeals to a lot of people, then you got a software that evolves right but evolution is slower because of the limited number of people who work on it. Prime example of this is Apple. Apple's products are simply better because of Steve Jobs vision and leadership. Whether you like his style or not, that's irrelevant to the issue.

In my opinion modeling software development from real-life social formations is sub-optimal if not even obsolete. ITTO knows what I have in mind. People love to design & create. To harness this power people need directions, a clear path to follow in order to release their creativity. When people have directions, people are capable of directing themselves - leader becomes obsolete. Only vision matters.
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 11:57:55 AM »

It's hard to imagine leadership ever being completely rendered extinct, since all things being equal, leadership will cause one of two identical units to out perform the other - even if the unit is an individual.  Mastering self-discipline takes leadership of self.  Since we're ultimately a social species, leadership will always be a factor.

It's interesting.  Open source has had more failures due to bottlenecked leadership than not.  True we have many great success stories such as Python and GNU/Linux itself.  But when you look at the long history of "failed" open source projects, or at least as I was reading in Linux Journal recently Smiley, most fall from either conflicts at the top or a reduction in the contribution level from those who held the keys too close.

This, by the way, is what will eventually kill Apple.  How did they do when Steve-o took a mid-career break from the company?  Almost killed them.  Although there's no shortage of developers who write apps for the iPhone, Apple has walled their garden so securely that without gardener Steve they'll eventually become a sarcophagus 

Open source, open standards and equal access to services is the only way we can protect ourselves from the damage that will come when the closed close their doors.  In the cloud world the game changes and open source was/is slow to respond.  Prime example is SugarCRM.  Their key offering is cloud-hosted CRM, like Salesforce.  They also will sell you their code to use as you wish on your own servers.  Who's kidding who here?  The people that rely on their hosting solution will experience a tremendous financial impact when they die anyway.  In cloud land it's perhaps more important to have open standards and equal access to services than simply open source.  If your company bet the farm on a solution where the various components only functioned while the mothership was still living, see the App Store and Microsoft Azure, then great harm indeed can come to the world in the event of their demise.

Think about this and consider all the freedoms we relinquish to entities who intentionally hold us hostage to keep themselves in the profit seat.  Obama referred to the necessity to bail out the banks as America having a gun to its head.  The weapons in our industry are different but self-preservation and expansion are likewise their only concerns.  Just try to kill Microsoft/Google/Apple etc. and you better wear a legal helmet.  Gates cited harm to consumers if the DOJ succeeded in any of their anti-monopoly remedies they proposed for them.  What's changed?  Not much.  And tragically not enough of our attitudes towards proprietary, vendor lock-in business.
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2010, 01:01:15 PM »

It's hard to imagine leadership ever being completely rendered extinct, since all things being equal, leadership will cause one of two identical units to out perform the other - even if the unit is an individual.  Mastering self-discipline takes leadership of self.  Since we're ultimately a social species, leadership will always be a factor.

It's interesting.  Open source has had more failures due to bottlenecked leadership than not.  True we have many great success stories such as Python and GNU/Linux itself.  But when you look at the long history of "failed" open source projects, or at least as I was reading in Linux Journal recently Smiley, most fall from either conflicts at the top or a reduction in the contribution level from those who held the keys too close.
I don't think it is simply leadership, but the visionary as well. Few crusades are embarked upon and successful initially because of a committee. There most often needs to be a Don Quixote, a Ghandi, a Linus Torvalds whom, through will and personal intention, fight and work in the face of naysayers and ignorance until there is either enough understanding of the crusade or an influx of cash. In addition, although there are lots of people that are willing to participate in a crusade, few that either have what it takes or even the desire to be at the helm of the project, either for fear of failure, incapability or lack of desire for that role. In my busineses, the most difficult thiinghas ALWAYS been the conversion from a visionary, single point of focus effort to a board of directors. Many many do not make that cut. Which leads us to... 

This, by the way, is what will eventually kill Apple.  How did they do when Steve-o took a mid-career break from the company?  Almost killed them.  Although there's no shortage of developers who write apps for the iPhone, Apple has walled their garden so securely that without gardener Steve they'll eventually become a sarcophagus 
... the absolute certainty of your assertion aside, I agree that this is definitely one of the large and nasty possible futures for Apple. To my last statement however, if a company can recognize this failing and begin to institutionalize the attitudes, thought processes and vision of the crusader, then it can make the move from visionary-centric to reproducible board-based entity. I cannot help but think that Apple has worked hard to institutionalize the way Steve works and has learned many lessons from their last near-death experience. I believe they will capitalize on the Steve As Diety bit for long as they can profit from it, and probably make a transition in the reasonably near future to remove his death as the comapny's death ASAP. Like Gates and Ballmer.

OK, bad example  ROFLMAO     

Open source, open standards and equal access to services is the only way we can protect ourselves from the damage that will come when the closed close their doors.  In the cloud world the game changes and open source was/is slow to respond.  Prime example is SugarCRM.  Their key offering is cloud-hosted CRM, like Salesforce.  They also will sell you their code to use as you wish on your own servers.  Who's kidding who here?  The people that rely on their hosting solution will experience a tremendous financial impact when they die anyway.  In cloud land it's perhaps more important to have open standards and equal access to services than simply open source.  If your company bet the farm on a solution where the various components only functioned while the mothership was still living, see the App Store and Microsoft Azure, then great harm indeed can come to the world in the event of their demise.

Think about this and consider all the freedoms we relinquish to entities who intentionally hold us hostage to keep themselves in the profit seat.  Obama referred to the necessity to bail out the banks as America having a gun to its head.  The weapons in our industry are different but self-preservation and expansion are likewise their only concerns.  Just try to kill Microsoft/Google/Apple etc. and you better wear a legal helmet.  Gates cited harm to consumers if the DOJ succeeded in any of their anti-monopoly remedies they proposed for them.  What's changed?  Not much.  And tragically not enough of our attitudes towards proprietary, vendor lock-in business.
From my perspective the cloudy future will require much more open standards and transparent deployement than open source. As a consumer and purveyor of clouds, i am much less concened about whether the coders at company(x) can read and interpret the code they use for creating a cloud (frankly, I'd not believe most of them if they said they could) than if I can get my data/images/virtuals out of the could in a usable format and in a timely fashion. Open and adhered to standards make it so that could go from one cloud to another as need presented, rather than stuck in one only. This flies in the face of my enjoyment of Apple products, but for what I use them for, i am not concerned about this issue. Given the hints that have been coming out, therr may be more reason to be so. We'll have to see.   
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 01:03:31 PM by perkiset » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2010, 04:08:28 PM »

>the absolute certainty of your assertion aside

Touché - overconfidence of any future outcome here is foolish. 

>Don Quixote, a Ghandi, a Linus Torvalds

LOL - what a whacked list of people Smiley  For a moment there I thought you were going to include Steve Jobs as well, though at times he seems even more fictional than that fool of La Mancha ROFLMAO
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2010, 04:23:14 PM »

Lol @ whacked - yup, wanted to span the notion of crusade as broadly as I could right quick.
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