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Author Topic: Apparently, you're allowed to install or run software on anything you want...  (Read 5131 times)
vsloathe
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« on: October 27, 2009, 11:02:46 AM »

once you've purchased it.

http://www.bitlaw.com/source/17usc/117.html

I did not know this, but it's very important.
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perkiset
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2009, 01:21:56 PM »

Dood, you're really going to have to point out how you read those paragraphs as allowing for this sort of contingency in any way. I've just read through it 3 times and even mapped one of the paragraphs that I didn't get and I see it referencing other hardware (except in the case of repair) and actually making it pretty clear that you're NOT allowed to sell and adaptation of the software unless it's on a legally blessed piece of hardware and with the copyright holders express permission...

What am I missing here?
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2009, 01:55:39 PM »

so the simple breakdown.
A=you can back stuff up.
B=You can sell it, if you transfer all rights, meaning, you no longer have any rights, so no more copy for you.
    You also can't sell adaptations without express consent.
C=Temporary license infringement is allowed for the sole purpose of repair or maintenance. IE, you can install windows on two machines to facilitate transfer of all the files from the old machine to the new machine. but must then wipe the old one.

yea, not getting it V.
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I could eat a bowl of Alphabet Soup and shit a better argument than that.
vsloathe
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2009, 05:51:09 AM »

Here's the important bit:

"it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program"

Trumps the DMCA. I can mod OSX to make it run on my hardware. Ask groklaw.
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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2009, 08:33:14 AM »

@vsloath
i see where u are going.
you are correct that you can adapt your own copy to make it run on ur own machine.
but you can not pass on this adaptation to other users without permission of owner of software.

On February 5, 2009, Psystar won a round as a modified abuse of copyright claim against Apple under Judge William Alsup, opening the door to a potential nullification of the Apple-only hardware rule in Apple's EULA
But like everything it is who has the most lawyers with the most $$$$

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perkiset
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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2009, 10:18:32 AM »

Um,

Quote
Lease, sale, or other transfer of additional copy or adaptation. Any exact copies prepared in accordance with the provisions of this section may be leased, sold, or otherwise transferred, along with the copy from which such copies were prepared, only as part of the lease, sale, or other transfer of all rights in the program. Adaptations so prepared may be transferred only with the authorization of the copyright owner.

I think we have to assume that a judge would read the entire section... Wink
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2009, 02:52:00 PM »

Quote
(b)
Lease, sale, or other transfer of additional copy or adaptation. Any exact copies prepared in accordance with the provisions of this section may be leased, sold, or otherwise transferred, along with the copy from which such copies were prepared, only as part of the lease, sale, or other transfer of all rights in the program. Adaptations so prepared may be transferred only with the authorization of the copyright owner.

That's b, following the primary rules in a.  I think you may be wrong on this perks.  Look closely at the difference:

(a) Making of additional copy or adaptation by owner of copy. (legal)
(b) Lease, sale, or other transfer of additional copy or adaptation. (illegal)

So (b) pertains to the "transfer" of a copy and (a) relates to simply making a copy or adaptation by the owner of the copy, strictly for the owner.  I believe (b) is a given since it simply restricts you from leasing, selling or otherwise transferring the copy to anyone else. 

As your attorney I would advise you to start drinking heavily.  It's party time woohoo!!
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perkiset
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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2009, 03:21:21 PM »

From the OSX EULA (Bear in mind, I'm not making any judgement on the efficacy or non-evil that would piss you both off ... but when you purchase OS-X you agree to be bound by this license):

Quote
The Apple software (including Boot ROM code), any third party software, documentation, interfaces, content, fonts and any data accompanying this License whether preinstalled on Apple-branded hardware, on disk, in read only memory, on any other media or in any other form (collectively the “Apple Software”) are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Inc. (“Apple”) for use only under the terms of this License. Apple and/or Apple’s licensors retain ownership of the Apple Software itself and reserve all rights not expressly granted to you. The terms of this License will govern any software upgrades provided by Apple that replace and/or supplement the original Apple Software product, unless such upgrade is accompanied by a separate license in which case the terms of that license will govern.

This then from the subsection re. single user licenses:
Quote
you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-branded computer at a time. You agree not to install, use or run the Apple Software on any non-Apple-branded computer, or to enable others to do so. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time, and you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple computers at the same time.

This from the copy for archival purposes section:
Quote
You may make one copy of the Apple Software (excluding the Boot ROM code and other Apple firmware that is embedded or otherwise contained in Apple- branded hardware) in machine-readable form for backup purposes only; provided that the backup copy must include all copyright or other proprietary notices contained on the original. Apple Boot ROM code and firmware is provided only for use on Apple-branded hardware and you may not copy, modify or redistribute the Apple Boot ROM code or firmware, or any portions thereof.

Here's more:
Quote
You may not and you agree not to, or to enable others to, copy (except as expressly permitted by this License), decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, decrypt, modify, or create derivative works of the Apple Software or any services provided by the Apple Software, or any part thereof (except as and only to the extent any foregoing restriction is prohibited by applicable law or to the extent as may be permitted by licensing terms governing use of Open-Sourced Components). You agree to use the Apple Software and the Services (as defined in Section 5 below) in compliance with all applicable laws, including local laws of the country or region in which you reside or in which you download or use the Apple Software and Services.

There's quite a bit of verbiage around transfers, that essentially say you can sell it lock-stock-and-barrel, but not if you've modified it, and if it came with hardware, you must transfer the hardware as well.

Again, I don't see where the copyright law is in opposition to this or supersedes the license agreement you digitally sign by accepting it when you start up your computer or break the seal on a DVD. Again, I'm not making a judgement here, but I don't see the copyright law granting you anything special that is not explicitly limited here.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 03:22:56 PM by perkiset » Logged

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isthisthingon
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« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2009, 08:06:51 PM »

Quote
Apple Boot ROM code and firmware is provided only for use on Apple-branded hardware and you may not copy, modify or redistribute the Apple Boot ROM code or firmware, or any portions thereof.

And you actually wonder why I don't like this?  Suck-o-rama terribleness man.  Talk about shooting their own brilliance in the foot.  What a sham  Cry
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2009, 10:37:07 PM »

I don't wonder at all ... right or wrong, like it or not, that's the license. The question is if the copyright law above supercedes the license that you agree to when you use OS-X.
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2009, 01:52:24 AM »

I don't wonder at all ... right or wrong, like it or not, that's the license. The question is if the copyright law above supercedes the license that you agree to when you use OS-X.
Exact rerun of the apple case with psystar
The judge said that psystar did not break copyright law (Feb decision).

EULA has to hold up

Sgt. Barnes: You talking about killing? Hmm? Y'all experts? Y'all know about killing? I'd like to hear about it, potheads.
[takes pipe and inhales drag]
Sgt. Barnes: Are you smoking this shit so's to escape from reality? Me, I don't need this shit. I am reality. There's the way it ought to be, and there's the way it is. Elias was full of shit. Elias was a crusader. Now, I got no fight... with any man who does what he's told. But when he don't, the machine breaks down. And when the machine breaks down, we break down. And I ain't gonna allow that... in any of you. Not one.
[hands pipe back and spits]
Sgt. Barnes: Y'all love Elias. Oh, you wanna kick ass. Yeah. Well, here I am, all by my lonesome. And there ain't nobody gonna know. Six of you boys against me. Kill me. Huh. I shit on all of you.

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isthisthingon
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2009, 03:52:22 PM »

I don't wonder at all ... right or wrong, like it or not, that's the license. The question is if the copyright law above supercedes the license that you agree to when you use OS-X.

I think it could go either way considering how our laws are interpreted.  But the way this is written it looks like you would clearly violate the law by even disassembling it - on an island, for no other reason than just to get a better understanding of how software is written.  It's anti-competitive in nature though most of the world can't wrap their minds around the concept.  Read books and become a better reader.  Someday perhaps become a writer.  Use nothing but closed software and remain ignorant forever about how those programs do what they do.  Apple makes books that you can't read so you won't become a writer yourself.  Apple relinquishes our education for their profit.  M$, Oracle, IBM - same.

It's been a day or two since I've rambled about it but since our call I've been thinking about explaining a little more about what this means to me.  It's right up there with supporting education.

By making software that's closed and is legally enforced to remain that way, you're denying the world the chance to become programmers for selfish profit.  This is especially true in third world countries where you have two options, if you're lucky enough to have electricity much less access to a computer: 

  • 1. Use open source software
  • 2. Break the law

Through global collaboration between law enforcement and the likes of Apple and M$, the elite and corrupt get "theirs" and the have nots are thrown in prison.  We have the audacity to pile shame on top of that, referring to these people as criminals who deserve to be removed from society.  It's the same game played in many industries and in various ways.  A select few decision makers such as the House of Saud will be drenched with riches such that we can legally and righteously rape their peoples.  You've read the confessions of an economic hit man too perks, and you know this is the truth.  All you have to do is learn about what's really happening.

But what we can't see or refuse to see is that it all begins with us - not Apple, M$ or the CIA.  By condoning and supporting the closed software racket we are in every way doing our part to keep the have nots in their place. This is why it means so much to me personally.  It's always viewed as "itto (or whoever) wants free stuff" when in reality it's not about me.  I can buy anything I want and love the feeling of paying for something that's good, fair and not evil


I'm also not afraid of competition.  In fact I'd be in heaven if I was the least skilled architect in the world after dissolving the digital divide, since I would improve as a result.  I could literally feel the brilliance at certain moments in India while talking with software architects.  But in Argentina where the digital divide is extreme, even the "affluent" IT community looked at me with ghost-like eyes of desperation.  Windows 95 (only a few years ago), hand-me-down hardware, and dial-up.  Can't have cable since the poor dig it up, melt it and sell it for food in most places.  But the worst part was spending two weeks with a few absolutely brilliant people who simply had no one to guide them in IT.  One guy sailed around the world alone on a small sailboat, that he built, and yet is completely lost in IT compared to average IT people in America.  He owns and runs an ISP in Mendoza that microwaves Internet access to most of the wineries south of the city.  Each winery has a razor-wire protected, leased microwave dish provided by his company.  Everything he knows he shares if he thinks it will help others and I believe he deserves the same courtesy from us.

On a far less passionate note but also an important element is this.  Relying on the enemies of a company to reveal that something is nefarious within their compiled and unreadable code, say identity theft or even just usage patterns to know more about you, is pretty darn trusting of those enemies since they're just as locked out of the truth as we are.  In fact, those enemies are probably staffed with more morons than true geniuses.  Therefore it's impossible to be both truly concerned about privacy issues while being truly content with using closed source software - both for the individual and for those who he or she advises in good faith.  Though average Joe won't have a clue what all that code does, we will.  In fact the world would have known that Microsoft poked a security hole in Mozilla way back in February when it happened.  And unless I'm mistaken Microsoft has a few enemies floating around.

That settles it.  I'm writing a damn book about it!!   Wink
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 08:22:42 PM by isthisthingon » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2009, 06:13:52 PM »

  • 1. Use open source software
  • 2. Break the law
Pretty much sums it up.
Most of the time they choose #2.

From a strictly captialistic perspective preventing them from doing #2 makes the most sense.
Not sure if it was on the western news.
Basically stupid americans are sending reps to china to tell them how american companies are losing Billions of $$$ to China pirating various americano products.
Yah as if the average chinese gives a shit about americano companies losing money.

Also in places like argentina,PH,Indonesia etc. The governments are unstable.
As the divide widens the instability widens.
Does not take a rocket scientist to see what will happen.
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isthisthingon
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2009, 07:04:38 PM »

Quote
Also in places like argentina,PH,Indonesia etc. The governments are unstable.
As the divide widens the instability widens.

Absolutely right on nop.  So glad to hear someone who sees and understands this too.  It's impossible to unlearn things but I'll tell you, when you finally realize the negative effects on a human level of seemingly innocuous elements of a society far removed from another, it's never possible to go back to the ignorance you had before your eyes opened up.  Well I speak for myself, but that's how it's been for me.  This is a geopolitical issue that I take so seriously because I'm a software architect and also very "liberal."  It seems there's an imbalance in IT that favors a more conservative view of the world.  This is one really cool thing I share completely with perks.  He's willing to do the right thing politically at the clear expense of what most all selfish people would do - vote their wallet.

When a market fundamentalist (free-market conservative) spews some claptrap about how government should be completely removed from markets, making them truly "free," I can't help but remember some of the terrible things this philosophy has produced - such as killing babies.  Sounds like I just went crazy huh? 

"Nestlé supports the distribution of free powdered formula samples to hospitals and maternity wards; after leaving the hospital, the formula is no longer free, but because the supplementation has interfered with lactation the family must continue to buy the formula." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9_boycott)

(then viewers groan about how inflated and ridiculous this completely unrelated example is...)

Now with just a little imagination people just might be able to conceive of a similarity between imprisoning "software pirates" and killing babies.  Oracle, for example, literally wants people locked away for using a copy of their software that they didn't purchase - even when this copy was originally purchased by their cousin who managed to save enough money to actually pay them.  You get to remain disempowered, perhaps go to jail, or choose open source.  What Oracle really wants, just like Apple, Microsoft, and yes - Nestle, is whatever amount of money they can possibly drain out of any given region.  And that's what the whole copyright issue is really about.
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2009, 10:38:17 PM »

@isthisthingon
Problem is that most foriegners who live in places like PH,Indonesia and probably same shit applies in South America, hang out in fuking starbucks and live in a gated community.

And stupid americanos (sorry to pick on americanos but they ussually are the stupidist), think they will be safe behind thier big wall etc.
Ever notice how when a bomb goes off in Bali in some night club where foriegners patronize, locals never seem to get killed.

Kinda like province where i live. Just from what I know. 2 foriegners knifed to death 30+ times in thier own secure homes. Mysteriously no one saw anything. Was not reported to the police until a week later when the body was decomposing so bad the nieghbors was upset about the smell. I think the police called it in both cases a "mysterious death". One foriegner deported. Not too good of stats when probably only 5-10K foriegners in the province in this happened in 3 years. And this is only what i know about.
I know of one foriegner who got killed in a luxary gated community. Yah hmmm who is guarding u stupid. Probably should not have called the guard a stupid little brown monkey. Maybe then he might have seen who shot u.

Most of the foriegners that get kidnapped, guess what. The police are on it with 90% of the cases.

Pretty much this is caused by economic policies of USA etc.
Your foriegn aide, yah that goes to the various high up politicos so USA can support thier various dictators. The foriegn aide then only goes to people who support the dictator.

Your nestle example does not really apply here since most births here are at home with a mid-wife. But it is very surprising that the mortality rate for births is not much higher then USA. I have not heard of any woman who died in child birth. Ussually if there is complications the mid-wife sends the mother to the hospital.

Again it is greed/arrogance of the conservatives. The snide concept that they thing they are better then everyone else.
I help the locals out the little i can. Pretty much my yard is an open yard. People wander in and out.
A few small items go missing. Possible it might be theft or just maybe my carelessness.
So lets say total cost to me is like $50-100 a month. But I do not pay any taxes here.
But then again people give me some sort of exotic trees (I have no idea what they are besides the banana tree) etc.
That is not to say I am a total push over etc. But then again because I have a reputation for being fair, if i complain to the police then the police actually try and help me etc.

Meanwhile stupid greedy americano gives out nothing. Probably he has a much higher rate of theft, people hate him in general. And odds are people will shoot at his house etc.
Also because people hate him, he ends up having to pay much more for things then i do. If he is a really big asshole, who knows maybe he might commit suicide by stabbing himself 30+ times. Why USA is losing the war on terror, in iraq and in afganistan.

So probably the $50-100 from a strictly capitalistic perspective i have gained back much more.
A prime example is Bata (the shoe maker) and his adventures in communist countries.

Anyway waste of time talking about this shit Smiley.
I actually like asshole americanos. Even though i am an asshole they make me look like a saint  ROFLMAO ROFLMAO

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