And he was informing me that

PHP

  is a dead language and that I have to

learn

  Ruby if I want to go anywhere.

As impressed as I was with some of his work, I kind of thought he was full of shit in that regard. Thoughts?

Bullshit.

All these people who preach about ruby,

python

 , etc. as the next big thing have an agenda. They have spent a considerable amount of time/energy

learn

 ing  that language (some even "mastering" it) and they want it to become the "next big thing" so they are in higher demand and can request a bigger paycheck.

That's all.

Ruby might be the next language of choice for web development. Or it could be

python

 . Or

PHP

  could keep its marketshare. Or it could be something that hasn't received attention or even been invented yet. I don't know.

What I do know is that all these "web 2.0" companies that are built with Ruby On Rails, Django, or whatever the hell else are putting their faith into the assumption their platform/language is going to catch on. Personally, I think it's CRAZY to do this.

What happens if

python

  is the language of choice in 5 years? All these sites built on RoR are either going to have to port to

python

  or have trouble finding ruby coders to maintain their sites.

What happens if you choose

PHP

  and it becomes a dinosaur in 5 years? Well, then you can port to the "latest big thing" knowing you're making a good decision instead of gambling on choosing the "next big thing" now. Plus, you won't have trouble finding

PHP

  coders because they are already out there.

I've looked at RoR before and I got to the part where it wasn't compatible with

Apache

  out of the box. So, you built a framework that makes it "easy" to build applications but it won't work with anyone's web server? Good job, assholes.

I'm not going to waste my time

learn

 ing  this shit until it becomes mainstream. I've said so much on my blog and I get the "you’ll love obsolescence" comments and I just laugh at these people that don't see that they have a much higher chance of becoming obsolete than I do (ie if

python

  gets chosen over ruby). The difference between me and them is that I have confidence in my abilities to

learn

  the language/platform in half the time that they did and I don't lose sleep at night worrying about people getting ahead of me because I know I'll catch up.

</rant>

or...

become a ruby expert. then when they tech dies, you can charge 500 an hour to save a company's ass.

Pretty much how I feel about it as well CDC. I do regularly read your blog and now I recall reading you writing similar thoughts before. I was wondering where I had read that.

The whole time he was talking about

PHP

  being a "dead" language I was thinking "70% of the web?" and the whole time he was talking about how "unstructured" and sloppy

PHP

  is, I was thinking "I doubt you've looked at

PHP

 5".

Actually TBH, I felt like the whole time he was talking to me, he was trying to sell me his services. I'm like...dood you don't get it. I don't need a fishing coder. I hate being treated as though I know nothing. I know there are people out there who are *way* more talented than I at

programming

 , and it doesn't bother me. We can all

learn

  something from each other. I hate being talked down to though, and looking back on it I feel as though that was happening.

Probably just didn't realize it at the time because of the *KILLER* blended Canadian whiskey that this one guy bought. Tax stamp on the bottle said it was from 1959. It was AMAZING.

I kind of hang on to a little philosphy I leared about 20 years ago: the POP and POCA.

The POP, or Point of Pain is where <the thing you're evaluating> becomes too difficult to continue using for one reason or another. The POCA, or Point of Clear Advantage endeavors to look at why one <thing> is clearly better than another.

So here's the analysis of

PHP

 : What exactly is the POP that would cause a massive ship jumping? I don't see it. In fact, I see the language alive and being updated nicely with the times. How about the POCA? Well, there are things about

Python

  and RoR and and and that have some advantages over

PHP

 , but the same could be said about

PHP

  looking at them. I don't see a POCA over

PHP

  anywhere right now.

So I agree 100% with CDC that it's complete bullshit and driven by an ulterior motive like personal profit. There is also one other point here: take a new tech person,

teach

  them a single language and THAT's the best language in the world... how many languages has that bonehead

learn

 ed and let go before? That is a mammothly important fact in that argument.

And take NBs for example - still working in

ASP

  and

.NET

  stuff - clearly, the POP has not been reached and a POCA has not become extreme enough to move him off of a very successful, robust and broad language and development framework. Perhaps in a few years it will... but who knows? The important point is for him to identify that moment and move accordingly. The sweet spot is knowing the difference between pop trends and when a language has really died - or is dead walking.

/p

BTW - the whiskey sounds great - perhaps I should find me a bottle to try and kill the flu bug that's beating the shit out of me right now... 

stay the hell on your side of the 101 you sick bastard.

Pink hat says the same  feels like I've been massaged by a bag of bricks and am channelling Linda Blair.

You might want to swab your keyboard with alcohol after responding to this post 

The Kaptain calls bullshit.  That dude should just find something sharp to fall on and do us all a favor.  Next thing you know some jerk is going to come along and try to convince you that ColdFusion is the way of the future.

@Perk - massaged by bricks - i'll have to remember that one. 

Wait... wuh... it isn't? And here you've been saying... 

Yeah. The guy seemed to know his shit, but then he was running

Ubuntu

  with Beryll as his X11 windowing system...I wouldn't exactly call that "hardcore". Nice and pretty and all but...

Anyway I'm over it now. Shouldn't have wasted my time talking shop with him in the first place, should have stuck to cigars.

You are a troll vs
Pretty sure you made up the story
Lisp in 10 year will be dead. I know this to be true, I saw it posted on a news group archive dated 1987.



It is a logical fallicy to presume that just because someone profits by a certain thing that it is wrong.
Lets say for devils advocate that every person I convert to using ruby, I get $100.
But if ruby is the best language then your profit arguement falls on its face.
The profit motive works well on people with christian/islamic/jewish culture,
but if you tell it to an eastern person makes little sense to them.

Anyway fuk i

learn

  something every day

PHP

  is easy to

learn

 , has a C/C++ syntax which makes it very easy for java/C/C++ programmers to pick up.
It is designed for web apps, that is what makes it so good.

PHP

  is not a "glue" language like ruby/

python

 /

perl

  etc.
So basically the guy is comparing

apple

 s and oranges.

When I looked at ruby I had been using

python

  for many years.
Ruby has its roots in japan, and is very popular there since it handle japanese characters pro

perl

 y.
Also it has tons of japanese documentation, until recently very little english docs.
(probably another good reason to

learn

  it if you are japanese)
(One of first languages to have unicode built in from the start).
It has some cool language features.
But unless you are chinese/japanese/or use an alphabet with 300 characters

Downside of ruby is native threads are not supported.
It does not use a VM like

perl

 /

python

  does (and i believe now

PHP

 
As a result it runs slower. As of version 1.9 they are working on a VM.
It does not have as many libs as

python

 /

perl

 , but again changing.

So for me POCA was none existant.
If on the other hand you are a total newbie (as in language illiterate), and you want a
general purpose language

learn

 ing  ruby is not such a bad idea.

The "language of choice" in 5 years again depends on perspective.
If your goal is to get a job and work for some large company, then great arguement.
There are some large companies that still use software written for VAX. Cute part is it runs
on an emulator . You can make tons of $$$

learn

 ing  an ancient language.
Software is not like the hoover dam, a monument to stand the test of time. A script written for

PHP

  3.0 will not run in most cases on

PHP

  5.0 without modification.
The 5 years crap makes perfect sense if you are selling to some companies board members,
that know nothing about

programming

 /computers and think software is like a building.

Good software evolves. And ussually it is rewritten totally every 3-5 years. For

perl

  example, it has
always been written in C (correct me if wrong). But as new

programming

  ideas have come into play
I am not sure how many times it has been rewritten. I believe same hold true for

PHP

 ,

python

  etc.

If you are a large company the mainstream arguement hold true 100%.
On the other hand if you are an upstart company you need to gamble on new technology.
What will be the "ace in the hole" that will give you the advantage.
If you fail little is lost, on the other hand


Yah i should stop getting involved in stuff like this.
But I do not watch TV.
I do not watch sporting events.
I do not have a hobby like cutting up wood, or taking appart automobiles.
What else is the for me to do but argue politics and

programming

  languages.

That was not my point, nor would I ever assume that - capitalism is good. 

My point (ill stated perhaps) was that his argument may have been based on either his lack of knowing any other language, or that if he can convince VS that he needs a Ruby consultant and... Kaching! Or perhaps you're right and VS has made this story up as a cover to his girlfriend and he's just testing it out here 


Unfortunately for good programmers, this sometimes entails a wholesale shift in language & toolsets. Natch, this is why I've gone through so many different platforms. It is painstaking at times, but keeps a body up to date. It's also an excellent way to keep ahead of the pack - most coders (it seems to me) get comfy and do not stretch out beyond their current toolset. It's just too much bother.

If I wasn't just 18 months out of a

PHP

 /Java evaluation and bunches of Ks of source into a

PHP

 /JS/

Ajax

  framework I'd prolly pay more attention to the RoR and

Python

  arguments

No sir, really happened.

There is no such thing as a "best language" but I won't hold you to semantics and I'll assume that you're talking about ruby becoming the de facto language in a couple years. My point is not that ruby won't become the de facto language, it's that nobody knows what the de facto language will be and anyone claiming to know is either clairvoyant or has an agenda.

So when someone comes up to me and tells me

PHP

  is dead, and then gives me the sales pitch for the language they've spent hours

learn

 ing , I tend to think they have an agenda.



Why do upstarts need to gamble on new technology? If anything, I think the upstarts have much more to lose if their gamble doesn't pan out - they won't have the resources to recover. What language you choose isn't going to get customers to buy more widgets or do whatever the hell else it is you want them to do; I don't think a

programming

  language is enough of an "ace in the hole" to give any business model an advantage over another.

We all have an agenda 
Yes and no. We all have a tendency to want to "convert" other people, even if no financial gain is involved.
(you and me are sharing view points, i have nothing to gain financially you have nothing to gain)


You mention "buisness model". If my buisness model sucks, the language will not help .
We will assume that buisness model is good.

The upstarts have nothing to lose if they fail, while if they win they will win big.
<>What language you choose isn't going to get customers to buy more widgets or do whatever the hell else it is you want them to do
Yes and No
Generally upstarts are short of 2 things time and capital.

Lets say the year is 1996.
In this time period the way to make web-apps is very simple, use

perl

 , use C/C++, use some sort of shell cgi script.
That is the "main stream" technolody to make web-apps.

You happen to hear about this language called

PHP

 .
This language has revolutionary features in that it parses a "template" and produces a webpage.
Your webdesigner can produce a page, which programmer with little effort can turn into a template.
Your development time is a lot less then the competitions, less work etc.

If there are 2 companies, both have a good buisness model, both are exactly the same, but one is using

Perl

  (this is like 1996

perl

  where u go like print "<html">, no templates here ), and the other uses

PHP

 .
.....
On the other hand if u are big blue and u can hire 40 programmers to do what ever, using new tech is silly.

That is how i see it .
Your points about buisness model, and customers most techies forget about.
They seem to think Ruby on Rails will fix thier shoddy buisness plan and poor customer relations .
hmmmm

So very on the dot.

The notion of a language choice solving a business model is like thinking that MORE ketchup will fix an already bad meatloaf. Those business people are from the day when technology was still a black-magic voodoo like thang and only the few really know it... this magic thing will come and make us all rich. meh.

So what if you

learn

 

PHP

  first?.. is it just as easy to then

learn

  C++ / CGI /

Perl

  /

Python

 ?

Yes and no. Every time you

learn

  a new language it makes

learn

 ing  the next one easier. I think nop's point was that

PHP

  caught on because it's very similar to those languages (which were very popular at the time) so it was easier for people to pick up

PHP

 .

With a solid

PHP

  background I think you'll be able to pick up

perl

 /CGI fairly easily. Going from

PHP

  to C++ is going to be a bit difficult IMO, but it can certainly be done. I don't have enough experience with

python

  to comment.

I come from the school of thought it is better to do something then nothing.
People ponder for like months, which language should i

learn

 .
In that time you could have

learn

 ed one and be doing shit.

Sage advice.

td

Well just so no one misunderstands my intentions in making this post initially - I love

PHP

 .

I'm no language fanboi though, I will use whatever gets the job done best and fastest. I haven't even touched Ruby other than installing Rails on my local test box to play around with. Then I had to do some actual work though and Ruby was forgotten. I would love it if

PHP

  was around for 10 more years but this guy was trying to convince me otherwise and my initial thought was that he was full of shit on this matter but I wanted to see what you all thought. Now my second impression is that he's a typical pseudo-technical Digg fanboi.

Here is a graph comparing

php

 , rails, and java (http://www.cmswire.com/cms/industry-news/

php

 -vs-java-vs-ruby-000887.

php

 .

Also anyone here use Rapid

PHP

  (http://www.blumentals

.net

 /rapid

php

 /) or anything similar, I use Editpad Pro but would get it if people find it useful...

Interesting - and as they mentioned, I'm sure the proponents of

PHP

 /RoR and Java are lighting up the airwaves with why their fav didn't rank higher lol

I just had a look and grabed a copy,I will let you know how I get on.

Only problem is after years of doing

php

  with dreamweaver I am a bit old to change....